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Ravishing

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The biggest issue is the pace at which they make change. They are way too slow, way to careful in trying to achieve this utopia in game where everything is perfectly balanced forever. That will obviously never happen. What they should to a certain point in fairly substantial balance pass every 2-4 weeks that shakes the meta, even if it’s breaks certain heroes and make others OP for a bit. If they do these changes often enough like 2-4 weeks and make sure that each hero has its time in the sun it would keep the game more exciting.

The problem is simply that they are so slow that each meta last 6-9 months. That a hero remains OP or broken for 6-9 months. Embrace the fact that you can’t achieve balance and make change often enough to prevent things from becoming to stale.
Sorry but changing the meta every couple weeks sounds really bad too. People don't want you have to relearn the game every couple weeks.

If your game lacks depth to where players can't see themselves making progress, or not enough depth to have varied matches, without forcing meta changes, then there's just something inherently wrong with the game.

Also keep in mind league has an item system and talents/ traits you select pre-match to keep things even more varied... OW is so 1 dimensional it's not even funny..

I gotta admit, if they said they were releasing their PvE abilities for PvP I might decide to reinvest in the game.

Just allowing some form of character customization to change up the match would go a long way imo
 

slippery

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Sorry but changing the meta every couple weeks sounds really bad too. People don't want you have to relearn the game every couple weeks.

If your game lacks depth to where players can't see themselves making progress, or not enough depth to have varied matches, without forcing meta changes, then there's just something inherently wrong with the game.

Also keep in mind league has an item system and talents/ traits you select pre-match to keep things even more varied... OW is so 1 dimensional it's not even funny..

I gotta admit, if they said they were releasing their PvE abilities for PvP I might decide to reinvest in the game.

Just allowing some form of character customization to change up the match would go a long way imo
That's the thing that turned me off the Auto Chess genre, too many changes. I work too much to have a lot of time gaming, and when I'm playing a different game every time I get a chance to play it's pretty off putting.
 

gauze

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I don't mean that making more heroes and maps would ultimately save/d the game, but it would have had a greater/highest impact amongst the 'support beams' of the community that aren't e-sport/competitively driven player.. which in turn have them tuning into the OWL games. Regarding balances, adjustments, and so on.. you would still run into stale metas; league isn't immune to it by any means but at least more options would present itself without resorting to the pve talents*

Either way, not that its entirely gone.. but the communities of content creators, and just all around fans of the game are seemingly recessing too.. there just isn't anything coming out for them to latch onto other than the blimp that is OWL and I guess the "hype" for OW2. Looking at league, despite doing ranked or even considering ranked play.. there is still a massive following that dive into cosplay, fanart, and so on.

But I do agree with that, even with what I say or think; the issue is far greater. As far as the too many changes, I agree. I don't know if League has it still, but there would always be a patch before a big game or something? I can't remember the specifics, but it really upset the professional players due to having spent time practicing compositions and it getting scrambled.

edit; the most common complaints that I hear, albiet I am in a bit of a bubble.. is never about the stats, or who is carrying; not that I disagree against being rewarded.. but it usually comes down to the playable options available, the tanks and support being the most outspoken.
 
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Ravishing

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Im probably in the minority but role select really turns me off of the game, less options all around, I can't switch to healer or tank or dps mid-round, forces playing less heroes overall.

I know it was asked for but for me personally it's done more harm than good...

Also the fact every single hero is available in all matches probably limits how high they can go in terms of champ releases... compared to a moba where you lock in.

If OW ever had 100 champs I would think it would be unbearable, having to account for any hero at any time, eventually they might need to incorporate a champ select.


Lastly... and this counters my first point kinda...instead of the role select they've happened upon, I'd look into opening up all champs but having a moba style champ select. Not having a strategic pick/ ban phase seems lacking for OWL. It could help reduce the chaos and streamline the action, announcers could be more efficient and you can have proper analysis during games.


I think my biggest turn off with the current system is having to wait 5 minutes to play dps compared to 30 seconds for tank.

Just spitballing ideas
 

gauze

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Yeah, a hundred heroes in just 4 years would be a bit crazy for an fps format.. I'd wager at least 50 by this point instead of 31; imo... or atleast balance out the lopsidedness that is 16 dps, 8 tanks, and 7 supps.

I do agree that the role locking is not a great step, although I get it.. I enjoyed the philosophy of OG Symm and imagining characters to have the lines blurred a bit more between roles/function. Though I didn't experience the stagnation of goats, and have faced double barrier and dive metas.. I feel as if they could have taken the time to bring others up around it.. Or introduce more heroes who can open up new mechanics for a more rich action/reaction with picking.

Having a pick/ban phase for heroes definitely needs a larger pool to select from but I would definitely like to see more meta mind games on banning opposing players best character or priority locking.

I just think it would need more depth, and to me.. upping the hero count and map pool would be the way to go. Focus on pick/ban phases, and run seasonal map pools.. even changing up the maps with adding and subtracting elements.. I don't think anyone will make a map as good as dust2, so might as well tackle an everchanging map design. /shrug

While I think adding abilities/talents seems interesting for mixing up the characters with some diversity.. I just don't think it would work well for an fps. It wouldn't be long until a best in slot comes about. I immediately think about some fighters and a handful of other competitive games where these additional mechanics to spice things up; get a competitive ban.

I think the norms ruleset allows two of the same champion on the board? idr.. Regardless, in a competitive settings.. It would just be difficult with the hero size to limit 1 hero per game with swapping sides. League had 80+ champions by their first Season 1 Championships, essentially doubling their pool within the first three years. Granted, it is still a moba.. so its without surprise.
 

3301

Wake Up Man
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There's a lot they could do with the game, but do they actually make money off of it to do so? Jeff can't even have a nice shave before videos, so something is askew.
 

Araxen

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They have a chance to unfuck the game with Overwatch 2. It is a chance for them to rework the entire cast and take into account and correct the mistakes they've made over the years. They are either too stubborn to do it, or it'll set back the game's release for five years because they are too slow to do something like that.
 

Valderen

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I played a bit more this weekend, and man I cannot get used to the new tanking.

My tanking is low 2200 now, down from 2350, the only tank I enjoy right now is Zarya, I'm hoping that the PTR changes bring back dive a bit so Winston becomes more viable.

I stopped my downward spiral with support, climbing back from 1930 to 2030 or so, mostly playing Brigitte with whom I seem to be doing well enough.

DPS is steady around 2350 mostly due to Mei, I'm afraid what will happen with her nerf which I hear is far bigger than the number suggested.

While I still enjoy the game now and then, I feel it's simply too stagnant overall. No new game mode, new heroes and maps introduced to slowly.

I think seasons mean absolutely nothing in Overwatch since they fundamentally the same. I would love to see each season be somewhat different to keep things fresh.

The easiest way and least impactful would be a map pool rotation.

The second would be to have a relatively major balance patch each season shaking things up a little.

The 3rd would be to have a theme each season that affects gameplay. This might tied to the balance patch where certain similar abilities have a buff or debuff for a season, or have the health packs in game provide a small buff for a small duration so each season the gameplay is a little different.

It's just too stagnant right now from season to season. While 2-2-2 in my experience has made for better games overall, it does limit diversity and is making the game even more stagnant than it was before. They probably need another 4 tanks and 4 supports before 2-2-2 is in a good place, right now the small number of tanks is too limiting, especially since the tank combos are extremely limited.

I have little hope though, Blizzard is simply at the core too slow, and plays it too safe.
 

Noodleface

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They do have a map pool now though, starting last season.

I feel like Winston is in a pretty good spot myself. He does feel insanely squishy though if your team isn't supporting you. I only play him if they've got a tracer and genji fucking our backline or if their backline is super squishy.

I guess I "main" sigma now, with ball being my second choice. If I have to MT I just play Orisa, I'm just not good with rein and he's way too dependent on the team with him. Sigma I find to be the most devastating, although his nerfs over time have hurt him. Ball is just insanely fun, and with the right team I can really dominate. Stuck at 2000-2100 tanking, so probably something fundamentally bad with my playing but considering I was at 800 two seasons ago I think I'm doing ok.
 

Valderen

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Interesting post by Jeff on the forums about 1-3-2, 1 tank, 3 DPS and 2 support, they’ve been experimenting with this since December internally, Roadhog is a DPS in that experiment. :)

Wow, it was super weird to stumble on this thread.
In early December, we were brainstorming ways to shorten DPS queue times and the idea was proposed to try changing the role queue team composition to be 1 Tank, 3 Damage, and 2 Support. Our matchmaking engineers did some modeling around queue times, expected behaviors etc. and all indications pointed to an overall positive improvement to all queue times under a scenario like that.
From a design perspective we were reluctant for a number of reasons. Before implementing 2/2/2 role queue, we had done experiments with the team compositions being 1 Tank, 1 Support and 4 damage. The playtests under a 4-1-1 comp were terrible. The problem was the solo support. As a solo support, you felt unable to keep the rest of the team alive. Added to that, at all times, you had 5 very aggressive players prioritizing you as the target every time. As soon as the support player on one side died, the entire team would fall like a house of cards.
So when the idea of trying 3-2-1 came up, we were hesitant because of our poor playtests with 4-1-1. But we did something interesting in December and I am really proud of the team for sticking with it.
Internally, for the past two months, we changed the game to be based on 3-2-1 composition. When we queue for our playtests, we only get 1 Tank per team for each match. We decided to “live with it” for December and January because we felt like the easy and natural thing for us all to do, is just say, “hey this is different and here are all the problems with it” and dismiss the system. But by forcing the team to try it out and live with it for so long, it’s challenged us to try to solve some of the problems that have surfaced.
And there are a number of challenges.
First, there is the issue of what players have come to call “off tanks”. The biggest issues center around D.Va, Zarya and Roadhog. The current playstyle of those tanks (if you’re adhering to various metas that have existed) is to pair them with other “main tanks”. Obviously, if we were to change the distribution of roles from 2-2-2 to 3-2-1 it would require some balance changes. But possibly more than that. Roadhog is a great example. Is the correct thing to do for Roadhog under that design to try to make him more “main tanky” or is the correct thing to do to simply move him to the Damage role and balance him as a damage character? We’ve tried both in our months of testing. If you were to come and play Roadhog today with us in our 3-2-1 experiment, he’s moved from the Tank to the Damage category, he only has 400 health, Take a Breather only heals and does not do damage reduction and there were a bunch of DPS changes to his scrap gun. Now, don’t freak out. We’re not doing this for 2-2-2… I am only sharing the design experiment that’s going on here. Maybe a better direction for Roadhog under 3-2-1 is some sort of team damage reduction ability? How do you take what is essentially an “off tank” and make him a “main tank”? That is what we would have to explore with any of these tank characters. Since the Tank roster is already one of the more limited character selections, we’re obviously not crazy about removing choice from Tank players. And if our stated goal is to improve queue times, did going to 1 tank actually remove a bunch of otherwise tank players from the queue? Or were some of these “tank” players actually damage players who wanted a faster queue time so they picked Roadhog? Obviously, complicated questions and it is even more complicated to be confident in an answer.
The other fear around a 3-2-1 comp is the importance it places on the Tank player. In our playtesting, this has manifested itself in two notable ways. 1) Some players feel a lot of pressure to choose the “correct” tank. If there is only one tank, the team has a very strong opinion about who that tank should be. Another fear around this issue is that metas will be even more limited as players tend to take the “path of least resistance” towards their hero choices. If Reinhardt is deemed meta, do we only see Rein from now on? Are we all mad at our tank player if they play the hamster? 2) Some tank players felt a tremendous anxiety about their performance in the match. They felt like being the lone tank put a lot of pressure on them and if they died, it was a really big deal. Some of our tank/support players who would occasionally play tank stopped playing tank during 3-2-1 and only gravitated toward support because they felt intimidated to be “the main tank” and have so much focus on their play. Conversely, there are a number of main tank players on the team who actually enjoy the added spotlight. Traditionally in video games there are different personas that are attracted to roles in games: Tank, Support, Damage etc. We saw this in WoW and we see it in OW. While these are stereotypes (and you have to be really careful assuming too much here), there are many Tank players who love being the “lone tank” and carrying the team to glory. Watching this play out in our weird, internal experiment has been fascinating.
Our support players have given mixed feedback on the experiment as well. On the negative side, people feel bad when the lone tank dies. On the positive side, many support mains have commented that they feel like they have more freedom to focus on other players and not just “try to keep the big bags of hitpoints alive all match”. In general, these matches are more chaotic and (I’ll touch on this later) feel “more FPS-y”. The result is good or bad, depending on the type of player you are. For some of our support players, this makes matches more exciting. EVERYONE is taking a lot more damage under 3-2-1. for some support players, the chaos causes negative anxiety and they prefer just healing tanks.
The damage experience has been overall positive. For one, for those of us (like me) who usually queue for all 3 roles, we’re often pleasantly surprised to actually get to play Damage. Also, many on the team have cited that with 3 damage dealers they feel far less pressure than they do in the current live game with only 2 damage. The compositions have been very interesting. For example, you can have a 2 sniper comp (maybe Widow and Hanzo) AND have a flanker (Genji/Tracer). It’s really opened up the game. If you’re evaluating plusses and minuses, it adds to the chaos, makes the game play more like a traditional FPS (less barriers/damage mitigation going on) but also detracts a bit from teamplay.
Speaking of Teamplay, one of our testers who did not like the experiment made a comment that he felt like 3-2-1 detracted from teamplay too much. I found this fascinating because in 2013/2014 every decision we made was to embrace/encourage/force teamplay at all costs. We put so much effort into putting the focus on team victory/defeat rather than individual performance. But in 2020, I feel like the over-emphasis on teamplay (while great for hyper competitive players and situations such as OWL), causes a lot of psychological pressure for your average player just looking to blow off steam in a video game. I guess what I am saying is, that in 2020, feeling like you can deviate from teamplay a little bit in OW and have some success feels like a good thing, not a bad thing to me. The other analogy I’ve used (and I know you all hate my sports analogies) is that OW – in it’s current evolved form – feels like a football game (American) to me where every match is 4th down on the goal line. The amount of team synergy and execution required to pull off a victory is exciting… but also a little intense. There is something nice about a more loose/skirmishy version of the game – but again, it’s all opinion and perspective. Not everyone on my team agrees with me and that’s a good thing.
The other odd thing about testing this, is that when we started, everyone treated it like this was “one of Jeff’s crazy experiments” and was a super different, challenging (and possibly stupid) idea. I tried to calm people down by reminding them that MOST of the matches in OW history since launch up until the release of role queue, were actually played with one tank… or less. After a few of the early playtests in December, I remember one developer giving feedback that “the game felt like old school Overwatch… like when we first launched.” I tried to point out that the reason they felt that way is because we used to play the game this way all the time… it’s shouldn’t be that surprising or different. Let’s all remember, the surprising thing back then was actually having two tanks…
So it’s been a really interesting and fun experiment. We’re not really confident that it’s the correct thing for the game. It solves a lot of problems but it also introduces a lot of problems (like most things in the world of game design). I am really proud of the OW team for experimenting with it for the past two months. We’re really conflicted on it so it was cool to see you bring up the idea. We’d love to hear your thoughts on and opinions on it. We’ve also been brainstorming if there is a way to bring this experiment to the community somehow (either through the PTR or the live game somehow). We don’t want to freak people out though. Usually when stuff hits the PTR, we intend for it to go live (or some version of it). But this is much more of an early experiment more than anything else.
Anyway, thanks for proposing ideas like this.
 
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Araxen

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I couldn't play the game without RQ anymore. Fuck going back to 4-5 DPS teams.
 
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3301

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They could simply have multiple queue types. 2-2-2, 1-3-2, classic, 1-1-1 3 open, 2-2-2 with the ability to swap roles. “Soandso would like switch roles, do you want to swap into their current role? Y/N.”
 

Ravishing

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Based on that post by Jeff, they should just have heroes that slot into more than 1 role.

I'd like to see Mei/Symm as both DPS/Support too.
 
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Valderen

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At the speed Blizzard works, any fix is going to take too long, with OWL starting soon and Overwatch 2 on the horizon, I doubt we'll see major changes before then.

I think 2-2-2 has been for me personally a big improvement even with all the issues it brings, too many game were lost in the spawn room before the game even started, and were toxic from the get go. I found very little toxicity now, and usually only happen when the game is about to end with a toxic parting comment.

Until they have like 3-4 more tanks, and that more tank combo are good, the game will have issues. Tanks have historically dictated the way the game is played, and there's not enough of them, and too many tank composition are bad vs how many are good. I think we need more supports, but supports are in a decent place with most combo of any 2 support is viable, just a few are not.

While I love Mei the way she is, she could probably be reworked as a tank, she already kinda play as pseudo-tank right now anyways.
 
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