Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

BubbySoup

Golden Knight of the Realm
125
45
Nothing else seems to have that complex interlocking of factions and "sides" that EQ brought to the table.
Loved this aspect of EQ. I remember seeing 3 trolls killing guards outside of Freeport for the first time and was like, wow - those guys are evil!

On a side note, do the modern EQ expansions use factions and faction based cities much?
 

yamikazo

Trakanon Raider
1,361
546
Loved this aspect of EQ. I remember seeing 3 trolls killing guards outside of Freeport for the first time and was like, wow - those guys are evil!

On a side note, do the modern EQ expansions use factions and faction based cities much?
EQ hasn't used factions since Luclin.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
Was Arcanum any good ?
Was good but very lopsided in my experience.

Don't know if true, but it feels like half the gameplay takes place in the technology city. It at least has the lion's share of quests which is a buttload and by far the most sidequests. You get there early and stay there for awhile, then after it most places have a few quests and you breeze through them quickly. Because that one city is such a focus it makes the rest of the world feel barren in comparison and the beyond the southeast portion of it where it's situated, the rest feels like empty space, especially the northwestern half. By the time you get over there the game moves quickly and is done. This shows the most when you get the good elf chick to join you and romance her. Seems like within half an hour she goes from new member to falling madly in love with you spouting off as if you'd been on an age long quest with her, and after all the ordeals she's been through with you, she you can't help but admit that your her soulmate.

With that said it has a very interesting story and is unique in many ways, but it needed more time to be fleshed out. The ending is novel and really makes the story odd because the plot gets turned on its head right before the ending. One thing I did like is how Gnomes are fucking evil pieces of shit in the game doing crap in the shadows that you found out via the half-orc party members sidequest.

And yeah, play turn based and if you do try it, you have to limit yourself because the game can get easily broken like leveling up magic early in the game by grinding DDs and then blowing through the rest of the game. The one time I played the game I got the heads up about that and went the middle route between technology and magic to expedience as much of the game as possible getting enough tech to be able to pick locks and shit.

With that said the evil side of the story is greatly punished, you don't get as much content and shit as going good, but going good means having to deal with some annoying party members. The worst from memory is the fucking dwarf you get who you need to carry through the game to get access to the best armour in the game and some of the best weapons during a sidequest he unlocks. The problem is he's a fucking tool about doing bad shit so you have to kick him out of the party every time you want to pickpocket or bust into someone's place and strip it bare or else he'll get furious, leave and refuse to rejoin you. Add on the UI not being that great and it becomes very tedious.

With that said, there's not much replayablity. The magic vs technology dynamic suffers from lack of different choices to make if you decide to go one, then the other while as I said, going good gets you more to experience through member interaction and side quests and you can get quite a few good party members - the only two bad ones that stand out are an undead warrior and a necromancer who, iirc, will hate you unless you're going magic too. The only neutral character is the first party member that sticks by you no matter what and is the main healer, but I think he's sidequest can only be fully completed if you're good. With that said it's easy to go evil if you reconsider. You'll eventually find a helmet after the tech city that when worn gives evil alignment every time you put it on, so you if you just spam it on and off you can max evil in a few seconds.

An interesting game with an interesting world, ultimately let down by lack of full development - the trademark of both Troika and Oblivion.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
Actually later expansions still use factions, but they are not nearly as interesting as they used to be. First of all, they are usually dichotomous factions: 2 opposing tribes, if you kill one, the other goes up and vice versa. Not only that but often these 2 groups are found in the very same zone, making it even less interesting. You will usually find little evidence of the existence of such a faction even as close as the next zone.

Compared to old world factions, where like 3 factions would go up and 2 would go down, and these factions were part of an entangled web that would span the entire continent. Killing Orcs in Crushbone would alter your faction with the Indigo Brotherhood, a Dark Elf faction all the way in Neriak (Warriors?). Halflings, Ogres, Dark Elves, Goblins, Necromancers, Shadowknights, Bards all part of a web of factions. Rogue factions all over the world. I guess stuff like that is too much work to put in nowadays, probably because not enough people care. I think it is still one of the fun things in EQ though, one of the reasons I keep coming back, doing silly stuff like trying to get my Corrupt Guards Faction up for my Troll Beastlord.

They very recently made it so that you now actually can see how much a certain faction is going up or down, after killing an NPC or during a quest completion. Unfortunately it still does not say how far into that faction your character actually is. Has to do with the fact that faction in EQ is dependable on so many factors that apply to your character and its specific relation to the target.

Your Race(obviously), but also your class (SK), Religion, Buffs (Alliance from Enc) and off course also the race, class and religion of the faction-target. Stats even come into play: Heroic Cha gives a faction multiplier, if you have a lot of it.
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
Loved this aspect of EQ. I remember seeing 3 trolls killing guards outside of Freeport for the first time and was like, wow - those guys are evil!

On a side note, do the modern EQ expansions use factions and faction based cities much?
People who say only EQ had a complex interlocking of factions obviously never tried to sneak into Orgrimmar as a night elf in order to run Ragefire Chasm or to fish for the achievement.
smile.png
Plus there was the achievement to kill all the opposing faction leaders which used to be a big deal back in the day (vanilla).

I still go back to the thought that I think most sane people would agree that vanilla WoW by and large was the better game in many aspects yet the clamour for a vanilla WoW clone isn't as loud as a classic EQ reskin. I think a new game should combine both games, take the best aspects of vanilla WoW but don't make the dungeons instanced.
 

yamikazo

Trakanon Raider
1,361
546
Actually later expansions still use factions, but they are not nearly as interesting as they used to be. First of all, they are usually dichotomous factions: 2 opposing tribes, if you kill one, the other goes up and vice versa. Not only that but often these 2 groups are found in the very same zone, making it even less interesting. You will usually find little evidence of the existence of such a faction even as close as the next zone.

Compared to old world factions, where like 3 factions would go up and 2 would go down, and these factions were part of an entangled web that would span the entire continent. Killing Orcs in Crushbone would alter your faction with the Indigo Brotherhood, a Dark Elf faction all the way in Neriak (Warriors?). Halflings, Ogres, Dark Elves, Goblins, Necromancers, Shadowknights, Bards all part of a web of factions. Rogue factions all over the world. I guess stuff like that is too much work to put in nowadays, probably because not enough people care. I think it is still one of the fun things in EQ though, one of the reasons I keep coming back, doing silly stuff like trying to get my Corrupt Guards Faction up for my Troll Beastlord.

They very recently made it so that you now actually can see how much a certain faction is going up or down, after killing an NPC or during a quest completion. Unfortunately it still does not say how far into that faction your character actually is. Has to do with the fact that faction in EQ is dependable on so many factors that apply to your character and its specific relation to the target.

Your Race(obviously), but also your class (SK), Religion, Buffs (Alliance from Enc) and off course also the race, class and religion of the faction-target. Stats even come into play: Heroic Cha gives a faction multiplier, if you have a lot of it.
Can you provide some examples of meaningful faction?

A lot of the stuff is just a grind. Faction isn't in any way meaningful, and no one starts off "better" than others. Faction used to be meaningful, interactive, and lore-based; in today's EQ, it's the easiest mechanic devs use to track a character's "progression" through a given expansion, locking content behind it (e.g., spells, AA's, and gear) rather than keys or open-world difficulty.

Example: DoN progression - there are two camps, maybe 500' from each other, with the exact same items just with different names; the raids are the same.

Example: Plane of War - you need to grind faction to not one but two different towers to progress to the next tier. Faction at one tower does not affect the other. It's just a grind.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
Can you provide some examples of meaningful faction?

A lot of the stuff is just a grind. Faction isn't in any way meaningful, and no one starts off "better" than others. Faction used to be meaningful, interactive, and lore-based; in today's EQ, it's the easiest mechanic devs use to track a character's "progression" through a given expansion, locking content behind it (e.g., spells, AA's, and gear) rather than keys or open-world difficulty.

Example: DoN progression - there are two camps, maybe 500' from each other, with the exact same items just with different names; the raids are the same.

Example: Plane of War - you need to grind faction to not one but two different towers to progress to the next tier. Faction at one tower does not affect the other. It's just a grind.
No, I completely agree with you, modern factions in EQ are boring and serve no other purpose then to throw up some hurdle. My enthusiasm was for the original factions. Not sure why you would think from my previous post that I am making a case for the faction in later expansions.
smile.png
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,215
895
You know its bad when EQN is looking good again.
Agreed... just note my avatar but that's not a horrible thought anymore. Honestly, at least in regards to my Landmark experience, I have just as much confidence in SoE at this point as anyone else. Don't look too far into that.. i'm still skeptical but honestly but why give anyone undeserved praise at this point? I'm still waiting on some random game to come out and be the next big thing. I'm sure SoE and Blizzard will deliver what is "expected" but i'm not sure I want what I expect. I had no clue what EQ was going to be and i'm not sure they did either... maybe that's what we need.
 

etchazz

Trakanon Raider
2,707
1,056
Actually later expansions still use factions, but they are not nearly as interesting as they used to be. First of all, they are usually dichotomous factions: 2 opposing tribes, if you kill one, the other goes up and vice versa. Not only that but often these 2 groups are found in the very same zone, making it even less interesting. You will usually find little evidence of the existence of such a faction even as close as the next zone.

Compared to old world factions, where like 3 factions would go up and 2 would go down, and these factions were part of an entangled web that would span the entire continent. Killing Orcs in Crushbone would alter your faction with the Indigo Brotherhood, a Dark Elf faction all the way in Neriak (Warriors?). Halflings, Ogres, Dark Elves, Goblins, Necromancers, Shadowknights, Bards all part of a web of factions. Rogue factions all over the world. I guess stuff like that is too much work to put in nowadays, probably because not enough people care. I think it is still one of the fun things in EQ though, one of the reasons I keep coming back, doing silly stuff like trying to get my Corrupt Guards Faction up for my Troll Beastlord.

They very recently made it so that you now actually can see how much a certain faction is going up or down, after killing an NPC or during a quest completion. Unfortunately it still does not say how far into that faction your character actually is. Has to do with the fact that faction in EQ is dependable on so many factors that apply to your character and its specific relation to the target.

Your Race(obviously), but also your class (SK), Religion, Buffs (Alliance from Enc) and off course also the race, class and religion of the faction-target. Stats even come into play: Heroic Cha gives a faction multiplier, if you have a lot of it.
factions in EQ (for the first 2 expansion at least) were awesome and really did provide some interesting decisions and gameplay. i remember in SOV, our guild allied ourselves with the frost giants so we could kill the coldain dwarves and the claws of veeshan dragons to get the armor turn ins from TOV. but you could ally with the dwarves or the dragons as well. ahh the good old days, when you actually had to make meaningful decisions in video games...
 

DickTrickle

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
12,980
14,881
factions in EQ (for the first 2 expansion at least) were awesome and really did provide some interesting decisions and gameplay. i remember in SOV, our guild allied ourselves with the frost giants so we could kill the coldain dwarves and the claws of veeshan dragons to get the armor turn ins from TOV. but you could ally with the dwarves or the dragons as well. ahh the good old days, when you actually had to make meaningful decisions in video games...
It wasn't that meaningful since it'd just take some grinding to switch factions. What would be meaningful is if you killed the Dain and nothing you did could ever make the dwarves like you again.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,215
895
No intent to derail but why did this happen again?

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/i...l-so-old.4319/

Never really understood the real purpose of this move or why he was brought into SoE in the first place . If there was a reason, why didn't Brad just keep a low profile and work is way up or around the company. Who knows what could have happened in 5 years if he could have held down a job somewhere that is not a terminally ill company.
 

gogojira_sl

shitlord
2,202
3
Maybe he needed a job and Smedley brought him on to see if he could scrap it out and make himself an asset? He started on Vanguard before moving to EQ before eventually being let go. I'm not in any way clued in on why he was let go, but after this whole Pantheon bullshit it's not too hard to make a few guesses as to what happened and why he's gone from SOE.
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
No intent to derail but why did this happen again?

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/i...l-so-old.4319/

Never really understood the real purpose of this move or why he was brought into SoE in the first place . If there was a reason,why didn't Brad just keep a low profile and work is way up or around the company.Who knows what could have happened in 5 years if he could have held down a job somewhere that is not a terminally ill company.
Ego is a powerful thing if you let it. I bet that's one of the reasons. Another may have been perception of the other devs at SoE. Maybe he was thought as some sort of royalty there and it's pretty demoralized being reduced to just another faceless dev in a big company.
 

Sunspots_sl

shitlord
110
0
What happened was he was once again surrounded by people who think he is a God and started believing it himself again. Never believe your own hype. Also, I'm pretty sure the relationship that Smed and Brad have is a lot like Walter and Jessie.
 

Vinyard_sl

shitlord
3,322
16
Honestly I think he was brought back to hype up Call of the Forsaken (omg guys u know those zones we always hinted at well im making them pls buy expansion).
 

a_skeleton_02

<Banned>
8,130
14,248
Honestly I think he was brought back to hype up Call of the Forsaken (omg guys u know those zones we always hinted at well im making them pls buy expansion).
Yeah, I think he needed the money and Smeds brought him on to promote the game and help him out financially. I bet he pitched Pantheon to SOE privately and they where not interested so he left and tried the Kickstarter route.

He would of had a good thing going if he had stayed at SOE as some sort of EQN spokesman, trying to reach out to former players to try this new game. He should of stayed and tried to weasel his name onto the Landmark Credits.
 

zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
18,936
73,937
He would of had a good thing going if he had stayed at SOE as some sort of EQN spokesman, trying to reach out to former players to try this new game. He should of stayed and tried to weasel his name onto the Landmark Credits.
That implies SOE wanted to keep him and I'm not so sure they did. What does Brad really offer a developer at this point? His ideas aren't even that great right now and work causes allergic reactions so...probably better sitting at home robbing the gullible. I think the best advertising for SOE is just to make a great game.
 

spronk

FPS noob
22,708
25,854
soe had a big round of layoffs late last year, brad and most of the pantheon "dev team" (designers) were the ones laid off. so its not a matter of choice or anything. Sony is not doing well financially and has been shutting down studios left and right, their TV business is in the shitter and their SCEA CEO stepped down two months ago, I'd expect another round of shitstorms when a new CEO is appointed.