Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Muligan_sl said:

I'll go even to say that beyond CC I want slowers back.

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I'd group slow as a CC ability. Softer then mez sure but it's still powerful. Same with root.

That said, the role that should be done away with on a class design level is DPS. Of course you need people that build their character in a way that makes doing more damage their focus. But do we really need whole classes, and in many cases even the majority of classes that can do nothing else? I think we dont.

Define your roles (except dps) and make sure every class has the option to build their character into at least one role. Also make sure every class has the option to build their character into dealing more/better damage. Give players enough credit to decide on their own how they want their character to advance and where to put their priorities. If someone makes a Necromancer and decides to throw ALL his build points into soloing then he's not as useful as a necro that went with the abilities that are less nice solo but nice in a group. If someone makes a priest and decides to throw all his build points into group healing then he'll do worse solo but be more useful on a raid. Good for them, they each chose their way.


P.S. also, no respecs. If you make massive balance changes refund the points, otherwise tough luck. With an open-ended system they're not screwed for life they just spent points they used back then, still have those improvements, and just dont use them as often since they changed their playstyle. That is not bad, people dont need a right to reclaim any gametime spent on something they consider "not worth it" a year later.

Mr Creed_sl said:

I'd group slow as a CC ability. Softer then mez sure but it's still powerful. Same with root.

That said, the role that should be done away with on a class design level is DPS. Of course you need people that build their character in a way that makes doing more damage their focus. But do we really need whole classes, and in many cases even the majority of classes that can do nothing else? I think we dont.

Define your roles (except dps) and make sure every class has the option to build their character into at least one role. Also make sure every class has the option to build their character into dealing more/better damage. Give players enough credit to decide on their own how they want their character to advance and where to put their priorities. If someone makes a Necromancer and decides to throw ALL his build points into soloing then he's not as useful as a necro that went with the abilities that are less nice solo but nice in a group. If someone makes a priest and decides to throw all his build points into group healing then he'll do worse solo but be more useful on a raid. Good for them, they each chose their way.


P.S. also, no respecs. If you make massive balance changes refund the points, otherwise tough luck. With an open-ended system they're not screwed for life they just spent points they used back then, still have those improvements, and just dont use them as often since they changed their playstyle. That is not bad, people dont need a right to reclaim any gametime spent on something they consider "not worth it" a year later.

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Do you lump EQ in with this statement? If so, I'd have to disagree a bit.. just didn't want to post why if you didn't mean EQ.

Have to say I'm with the make your decisions matter crowd , no respeccing , dual role warrior that can dps on the fly and full tank with a switch 5 secs out of combat.

If it's not chosen to go full on EQ locked in roles and classes , make it a severe pain in the ass to change some "build" from tank to dps , heal to dps and so on. Nothing that could be done in the field on the fly nor often.

Convo_sl said:

well the beauty of this game is Brad has a very target audience in mind.. .

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while that is true, I hope this time around we can avoid the "perhaps vanguard isn't for you" attitude.

Quineloe_sl said:

while that is true, I hope this time around we can avoid the "perhaps vanguard isn't for you" attitude.

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Hell no. Exclusivity is key.

I'm sure he wants everyone to try the game but it won't be for everyone. Not sure what he can do/say when someone comes along and says they want to be able to solo to max level thru quests only?!

Convo_sl said:

I'm sure he wants everyone to try the game but it won't be for everyone. Not sure what he can do/say when someone comes along and says they want to be able to solo to max level thru quests only?!

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If you recall, that quote I mentioned was also used to dismiss perfectly viable criticism of the game. Basically every discussion on the VG official forum was shut down back then with that line, it was a nest of fanboi praise and unity.

Quineloe_sl said:

while that is true, I hope this time around we can avoid the "perhaps vanguard isn't for you" attitude.

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Well if you recall, it was also used to dismiss the people coming along stating they didn't want the death penalty or a difficult leveling curve, or contested content etc...

Quineloe_sl said:

If you recall, that quote I mentioned was also used to dismiss perfectly viable criticism of the game. Basically every discussion on the VG official forum was shut down back then with that line, it was a nest of fanboi praise and unity.

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I totally get where you're coming from.. We will see a lot of that but this time from people who fund.

Convo_sl said:

Do you lump EQ in with this statement? If so, I'd have to disagree a bit.. just didn't want to post why if you didn't mean EQ.

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Do you mean the slow comment - I meant if I had to put "slow" in a tank/dps/cc trinity. Of course they could put slow in a "support" role alongside strong buffs in addition to the other three or something like that, all depends on how they want to balance stuff.

Quineloe_sl said:

If you recall, that quote I mentioned was also used to dismiss perfectly viable criticism of the game. Basically every discussion on the VG official forum was shut down back then with that line, it was a nest of fanboi praise and unity.

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True so the best thing Brad & Co. can do with their kickstarter is to lay out the design philosophy with examples of DP/leveling/questing/classes.

Quineloe_sl said:

while that is true, I hope this time around we can avoid the "perhaps vanguard isn't for you" attitude.

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Well, that attitude isnt really good if you want money from as many people as possible for the KS, but realistically its exactly what has to happen. They have to make it perfectly clear what kind of game they want to make and they have to see it through.

Quineloe_sl said:

If you recall, that quote I mentioned was also used to dismiss perfectly viable criticism of the game. Basically every discussion on the VG official forum was shut down back then with that line, it was a nest of fanboi praise and unity.

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Merlin_sl said:

Well if you recall, it was also used to dismiss the people coming along stating they didn't want the death penalty or a difficult leveling curve, or contested content etc...

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I was in VG beta right at the first run of the re-do of the combat system. And what you both say is true. There wasn't allowed anything to dare question the "Vision" or you got mob'd (by other testers , not the devs ), but there also unfortunately was a large portion of morons who had no business in the beta/playing the game , ones that thought vanilla WoW was too slow and difficult and wanted no death penalty , easy leveling and so on.

Hopefully this time Brad and Co can do the balancing act. Make it clear from the start , and all during the development , that if you aren't looking for an EQ/VG'ish mmo that is more "difficult" than most modern mmo's , no harm no foul ,but this isn't the game for you and yes , politely , leave. At the same time those who it is aimed for do have discussions/criticisms on various parts.

Quick example using the death penalty.

If you want zero death penalty , doors that way -----> lots of other games for you , this isn't it.

Arguments still abound on what type of penalty though , forced corpse run , xps loss , both , paying highly to avoid a corpse run allowed and so on.

Basically am hoping that the funding crowd are all the "niche" who realize VG level zealous defense isn't good and discussions are needed.

BankBank_sl said:

please no. make your decisions and stick with them.

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I totally agree 100%. I am so tired of the throw away MMOs out there where you just change your build more often then you change your pants. MMORPGs are RPGs first and foremost.

You are ROLE PLAYING a character. Your character shouldn't drastically change instantly.

If you roll a tank, and you decide 50 levels and 2,000 AAs later that you would rather be a melee DPS, then you should have to go through a lengthy questing process to even get the option to change classes, and then if you complete that, you have to skill up the stats that make you even plausable as that other class (like agility for Rogue). Then you start your character at the level you was at before you started the transformation, but all of your AAs are gone because those AAs were pertainent to your OLD CLASS. This should be a long exhaustive experience that takes a month at minimum to complete, and should only be able to be performed AFTER you reach the mid level range of your current class, and it should only be repeatable after once per every 2,000 AAs you gain in that new class.

The only thing I think you should get to keep from doing this is a bonus to your old class's main stat, so there is some benefit to doing it if you so choose to do so.

But, ultimately, your decisions SHOULD MATTER.

Welcome the board Brad!!

I'm with the specific class roles and no spec/switching please.
I don't mind hybrid class that starts as hybrid and remain hybrid (can do more than one role but not the best at doing them).

I think the problem with EverQuest was the fact that Clerics in most cases were the ONLY healing class for groups, especially for PUGs. I think we should add more class variety which fills several roles in order to create a healthy community which is not role-deprived (in most cases, healing).

I don't want EVERY class to be rigidly designed as in Tank, CC, DPS... because I believe there are plenty of roles classes can fill and I don't mind one class doing more than one role. I don't believe in the "trinity" because there are too many roles besides your Heal/DPS/Tank like CC, Debuffers, Buffers, Support, Pulling, and what have you.

Wishes:
1. Please no fixed factions and by that I mean give usthe ability to kill ANY NPCwhich in returns gives us the possibility to change our standings with every faction in the world. I MISS the concept of EVERY NPC is attackable. I HATE protected (green) NPC and please don't make the hostility/passive/friendly NPCs too obvious (Red, White, Yellow, Green name tags).

2. First Person View! I hope Pantheon: RotF is going to be FPV *crosses fingers*

3. Bring back EQ itemization. I don't want this generic Diablo prefix/suffix rarity-graded and level-based boring crap. Don't make items drop left and right by every trash monster. Make us spend days before we can find an upgrade. Let us first just wear stats-less junk we looted while we've been adventuring and make loot comes from nameds/bosses in dungeons mostly. Give us a reason to go there without these annoying "quests" make me call my friends and tell them "Hey, I need the Axe of Crush.. login in now let's go to Crushbone and kill Emperor Crush!" That is my quest and that is my reward. Items dropping from nameds monsters in a non-instanced dungeon... bring that back!

How much will you pledge?

Straw Poll

Tuco_sl said:

I suppose it's a matter of preference. My preference is to be able to be able to build a healer spec and gear set that is optimal for healing in group/raid play and be able to switch to a DPS that's optimal for solo play or DPS in group play. My preference is to be able to have a tank that goes LD and fill the role with the druid just waiting to go feral instead of being SOL. My preference is to be able to have one encounter that requires heavy healing and not have to swap out members in my raid because we have two too many healers.

To me it's not about class interdependence, it's about person interdepedence. I'd be happy if zero classes could solo to max level.

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So rift!? I dunno.. I get what you're saying but haven't we been down this road already?

I'm hoping if I post enough about my personal opinions on what a gamemusthave to be successful, or features itwill totally for surehave despite being in very early development and me not really having a clue, I'll finally be seen as the genius I am and get attention (or a job offer?!?!) from the actual developer posting in the thread.

Tuco_sl said:

My preference is to be able to have one encounter that requires heavy healing and not have to swap out members in my raid because we have two too many healers.

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I'd like to see 50 man raids again. Going 70+ was to chaotic, but I miss taking our entire guild into raids. This 24 man shit blows.