Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

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The thing I miss is not just high level mobs in lower level areas, but slightly higher level mobs that roam. I started in Kelethin and outside are level 1 bats, wasps, orc pawns, and some other shit. And then you get wolves and various things that are a level or two higher. But walking right amongst all of it will be a level 7 ish Orc Centurion who can kill any newbie in a few hits. So you learn early to be careful, watch where you are going, watch your back... and learn what to do when things go wrong. Mostly that is run to the guards immediately and hope for the best. Since EQ no other games do that, and newbie areas are just shooting galleries for levelling up mindless plebby modern gamers. Also the mobs aren't even aggro now... Everything is indifferent so you just walk around in zero danger, picking off mobs one by one. EQ had aggro mobs and aggro higher level roamers. Add in things like fizzles, resists, and interrupts, and life was dangerous for newbies.
 
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tyen

tyen

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Daidraco

Daidraco

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God almighty, I forgot about mobs casting Ice Comet and such. As a Warrior, if I wasnt wearing the appropriate gear Id make my cleric squeel! haha I loved that and hated it all at the same g'd time!

Honestly, I feel like down time just needs to be set on a bar that if the game is played well by equal leveled players as the mobs, then downtime should be minimal. 30 seconds to a minute per group of mobs (5-6), tops. Stream lined, strategic game play rewarded with little down time. If your group is bad, or under leveled, or doesnt have the proper class set up to make it work, then the downtime should ramp up accordingly.

Spells, defensives, things of that nature should directly reflect the amount of downtime.
 
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zzeris

zzeris

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Qwerty,

I agree about easy dungeons. At the same time, EQ got to the point where certain areas were fairly easy because of the camping. You go into Guk and a large portion of it is camped. If slaughtering stuff is boring, then staying in the same spot all night long is just as boring. Is waiting in a queue to get in a camping spot any different than waiting in line for the coaster ride at a theme park? I hope they do some form of AA and wouldn't mind sockets, etc to add variety to the one item/skillset fits all grind.
 
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etchazz

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zzeris said:
Qwerty,

I agree about easy dungeons. At the same time, EQ got to the point where certain areas were fairly easy because of the camping. You go into Guk and a large portion of it is camped. If slaughtering stuff is boring, then staying in the same spot all night long is just as boring. Is waiting in a queue to get in a camping spot any different than waiting in line for the coaster ride at a theme park? I hope they do some form of AA and wouldn't mind sockets, etc to add variety to the one item/skillset fits all grind.
Click to expand...

I think the easiest way to fix this is to have a lot more dungeons, bigger dungeons, and great loot in all of the dungeons. The problem with EQ when it came to dungeons is they filled one or two dungeons with all of the great loot, and the other level appropriate dungeons became obsolete because there was no reason to go there. In vanilla, everyone at max level was funneled into LGuk, or Solb, because there were no other dungeons to go to except for Kedge or Everfrost, which had no good gear, and was a pain in the ass. When ROK was released, again everyone was filtered into Seb or KC, because all the good loot was there, so no one ever went to HS or anywhere else. The solution would be to have 5 or 6 dungeons for each level group, put great loot in each of them, and make them massive enough to spread out the population so everyone isn't on top of each other, fighting for the 3 or 4 good camps.
 
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Jysin

Jysin

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Daidraco said:
...
Honestly, I feel like down time just needs to be set on a bar that if the game is played well by equal leveled players as the mobs, then downtime should be minimal. 30 seconds to a minute per group of mobs (5-6), tops. Stream lined, strategic game play rewarded with little down time. If your group is bad, or under leveled, or doesnt have the proper class set up to make it work, then the downtime should ramp up accordingly.

Spells, defensives, things of that nature should directly reflect the amount of downtime.
Click to expand...

Another thing to be considered is the EQ2 effect over time. Setting all of its other flaws aside for one second.. The pace of combat at the start was perfectly fine. Decent cast times, cooldowns, and whatnot. However, character strength improvement over the years revolved around focus that would reduce cast times, reduce cool downs, etc etc. Which seems fine at first glance. What resulted in the long run was whack-a-mole bullshit where stuff casted crazy fast and refreshed even quicker. (Plus ability bloat on top). The point is, you can build your core game around a decent pace but fuck it all up with focus / mods that change the entire pace and feel of the game. They need to keep this in mind for gameplay long term.
 
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Jarek

Jarek

Molten Core Raider
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qwertyqweqwertwqert said:
The thing I miss is not just high level mobs in lower level areas, but slightly higher level mobs that roam. I started in Kelethin and outside are level 1 bats, wasps, orc pawns, and some other shit. And then you get wolves and various things that are a level or two higher. But walking right amongst all of it will be a level 7 ish Orc Centurion who can kill any newbie in a few hits. So you learn early to be careful, watch where you are going, watch your back... and learn what to do when things go wrong. Mostly that is run to the guards immediately and hope for the best. Since EQ no other games do that, and newbie areas are just shooting galleries for levelling up mindless plebby modern gamers. Also the mobs aren't even aggro now... Everything is indifferent so you just walk around in zero danger, picking off mobs one by one. EQ had aggro mobs and aggro higher level roamers. Add in things like fizzles, resists, and interrupts, and life was dangerous for newbies.
Click to expand...

I started in Felwithe, so I know those roaming Centurians well. Another thing they encouraged was grouping. You would get raped alone, but with your Dwarf Pally bro and that Wiz and his Cleric friend y'all met, guess what! You guys fucked that Cent up and then became emboldened to go find more of them.

Head to Orc hill, make your stand, get wiped out, learn to med when you can, learn to pull and Crowd control, move into Crushbone, get trained, do your CR and then go camp that Shiny Shield for your Pally bro, have fucking fun!

That's an MMO. The player creates content via the game's design, rather than the content being designed just for the player.
 
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etchazz

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Jarek said:
I started in Felwithe, so I know those roaming Centurians well. Another thing they encouraged was grouping. You would get raped alone, but with your Dwarf Pally bro and that Wiz and his Cleric friend y'all met, guess what! You guys fucked that Cent up and then became emboldened to go find more of them.

Head to Orc hill, make your stand, get wiped out, learn to med when you can, learn to pull and Crowd control, move into Crushbone, get trained, do your CR and then go camp that Shiny Shield for your Pally bro, have fucking fun!

That's an MMO. The player creates content via the game's design, rather than the content being designed just for the player.
Click to expand...

Not saying I disagree with you, because I agree with your point. However, that feeling of truly starting out in a new world, of making friends to brave the unknown, that feeling we all experienced and shared while playing EQ, can't be replicated. Most of that came from it being our first MMO. In any new game, you're going to have the basics down the moment you log in. That feeling of awe, of fear of what might be just beyond the lights of the entrance to Felwithe, down that dark path, will never exist again. Any new game, you're going to make your character, kill the bugs and things right by the city gates, level up, gear up, and gradually move out. Sure, if a new game has a death penalty, some of that anxiety might be there, but not like it was with EQ. They'll never have corpse runs like EQ had. No game would ever dare to be that punishing again. Without that fear that you truly could lose your corpse and all your stuff, that feeling of dread will no longer be there in any game.

I'm just hoping they can recapture some of that old magic. Make death suck (maybe not as much as EQ, but make it so you don't want to die), make grouping with others almost a necessity (interdependency was a good thing) to get through the game, make loot matter again (no more loot pinatas), make quests fun again and not just hubs to level up and collect bear asses, make crafting an integral part of the game, and for the love of all that is decent and holy NO MORE HARD FACTIONS!
 
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Jarek

Jarek

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etchazz said:
Not saying I disagree with you, because I agree with your point. However, that feeling of truly starting out in a new world, of making friends to brave the unknown, that feeling we all experienced and shared while playing EQ, can't be replicated. Most of that came from it being our first MMO. In any new game, you're going to have the basics down the moment you log in. That feeling of awe, of fear of what might be just beyond the lights of the entrance to Felwithe, down that dark path, will never exist again. Any new game, you're going to make your character, kill the bugs and things right by the city gates, level up, gear up, and gradually move out. Sure, if a new game has a death penalty, some of that anxiety might be there, but not like it was with EQ. They'll never have corpse runs like EQ had. No game would ever dare to be that punishing again. Without that fear that you truly could lose your corpse and all your stuff, that feeling of dread will no longer be there in any game.

I'm just hoping they can recapture some of that old magic. Make death suck (maybe not as much as EQ, but make it so you don't want to die), make grouping with others almost a necessity (interdependency was a good thing) to get through the game, make loot matter again (no more loot pinatas), make quests fun again and not just hubs to level up and collect bear asses, make crafting an integral part of the game, and for the love of all that is decent and holy NO MORE HARD FACTIONS!
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I agree that it would be difficult to recapture, but EQ was not my first MMO. I had played UO for a full year or more when I jumped ship for EQ. The thing was, those two games had completely different mechanics. That's really the main problem these days, MMO has become generic by design. We know what to expect because MMO is McDonalds, it's the same food no matter where you go to eat it.

Think about DayZ. If you've never played it, it very much had that same feeling of being thrown in blind and helpless and alone. Now, I'm not saying it would be exactly the same, but I believe a game's design CAN be done in ways to encourage those feelings of real fear and the unknown. Of course, online wiki's will remove much of it eventually, but just by changing up the actual gameplay mechanics, make the game around emergent content rather than on rails questing, keep things uncertain and unknown until the players themselves figure it out and find it on their own.

We cannot go back to our first love, but good pussy is still good pussy you know? I know the difference between a dumb whore and a classy piece of ass, even if she ain't my first high school sweetheart. The problem these days is we've got a bunch of basic bitches when what we need is a class act.
 
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Dullahan

Dullahan

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The mystery created by being a total newb can never be recreated. Still, that shared experience of absolutely needing other people and then getting stuff done, can be. You can also create new mysteries. New unexpected mechanics, forms of progression, things to see, whacky and seemingly impossible mobs to overcome. Nothing stays magical and mysterious forever, but there are ways to keep things fresh. That starts by disposing of the formulaic approach to game design, and thinking outside of the box.
 
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Ukerric

Ukerric

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Mostly, if you want to recreate an EQ feeling, there are the core things you would need:

- Complex travel (while one unlockable flight-path per zone is ok, the 5 flight-paths per zone that modern WoW has, and EQ2 had, are overkill)
- Loot that requires groups to get (whether outdoor or in dungeons)
- Flexible factions (aka "reputation")
- Little to no basic quests, but rather long and complex quests for memorable goals ("epic quests")
- Strategical choices ("which abilities do I put in my bar")
- Tactical combat ("mez the healer, take down the caster fast")
- Death penalty with a bite (can't rez in place? well, you do have to wait 2h for your corpse to pop at the GY)

It does not have to be P1999 with better graphics and new zones. Within that framework, you have lots of flexibility. From EQ, I'd ditch the "no solo path" and let people who have <1h stuff to do (gain xp, gather prof materials, get faction), I'd probably ditch the world dungeons style and go to instancing (yes, anathema, I know. But shared dungeons lead to boring camping, KS, and is horribly sensitive to player population, all of which are greater problems than the ones from instancing)
 
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BoozeCube

BoozeCube

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Another aspect of everquest people forget about is that loot was rare. When you add instances and shit, especially with ones that can be ran over and over you open the flood gate of items. You go from one one raid boss worth of loot shared across an entire server, to however many groups can kill said raid boss worth of loot, or even how many groups can rerun this shit every hour.
 
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Sevens

Sevens

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Tim "Convo" Wathen joins the team as an Apprentice Designer and Lead Tester. Tim is a passionate MMO player who has played most major MMO titles starting with Everquest but also other titles such as World of Warcraft, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Rift and Elder Scrolls Online to name a few. Tim brings with him years of experience as a player and will continue his role as lead tester for the project. Tim will also work as an apprentice designer populating the world and contributing to other game systems.......From the Pantheon Facebook page. Congrats Convo
 
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BoozeCube

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
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Sevens said:
Tim "Convo" Wathen joins the team as an Apprentice Designer and Lead Tester. Tim is a passionate MMO player who has played most major MMO titles starting with Everquest but also other titles such as World of Warcraft, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Rift and Elder Scrolls Online to name a few. Tim brings with him years of experience as a player and will continue his role as lead tester for the project. Tim will also work as an apprentice designer populating the world and contributing to other game systems.......From the Pantheon Facebook page. Congrats Convo
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Did they just list his resume of qualifications as he played MMO's. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
 
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Skanda

Skanda

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Sevens said:
Tim brings with him years of experience as a player and will continue his role as lead tester for the project.
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I always knew he had to have been connected somehow. The shill in him was strong though to his credit he had some sense of humor about the shit flinging.
 
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E

etchazz

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BoozeCube said:
Another aspect of everquest people forget about is that loot was rare. When you add instances and shit, especially with ones that can be ran over and over you open the flood gate of items. You go from one one raid boss worth of loot shared across an entire server, to however many groups can kill said raid boss worth of loot, or even how many groups can rerun this shit every hour.
Click to expand...

Cannot agree with this more. There are so many things I loathe about instanced dungeons that I couldn't even name them all, but the item bloat would be right up there towards the top of my list. Rare loot is the biggest carrot you can use in a MMO to keep people playing. Comparing it to gold, people who search for gold search for it because it is ultra rare, and ultra expensive. If people could go outside and dig an inch in the dirt and find gold, no one would want it, and it would be worthless. The same is true for loot in a game. In this analogy, EQ would be gold, games like WoW would be shale.

Also, instancing is another way to separate the population by convenience, and used by lazy devs. Instead of using instances so everyone gets their participation trophy, how about having more dungeons/areas for each level group? Instead of making 1 or 2 dungeons for a level group, make 5 or 6. Make each dungeon big enough to keep the groups in each away from each other, and put great loot in each of them so not everyone is funneled to one particular dungeon/area.
 
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BoozeCube

BoozeCube

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ZyyzYzzy said:
You don't add that to your resume???
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Shit that's on my drivers license, facebook, tinder profile, resume, birth certificate, social security card. It says I played in FoH then people are like holy shit you played EQ with Furor let me give you a blow job. Then I am like oh no I played WoW with some of the forum people and they stop talking to me.

r3BPFdb.jpg
 
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Hateyou

Hateyou

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Sevens said:
Tim "Convo" Wathen joins the team as an Apprentice Designer and Lead Tester. Tim is a passionate MMO player who has played most major MMO titles starting with Everquest but also other titles such as World of Warcraft, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Rift and Elder Scrolls Online to name a few. Tim brings with him years of experience as a player and will continue his role as lead tester for the project. Tim will also work as an apprentice designer populating the world and contributing to other game systems.......From the Pantheon Facebook page. Congrats Convo
Click to expand...

That is so fucking funny. Tim brings with him years of experience playing MMO's. Well at least Brad has a MASSIVE pool of qualified people to continue to hire from.
 
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