Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

zzeris

zzeris

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mkopec said:
It was also a different era bro. but i also blame them for single handedly ruining the entire genre, since everyone after WoW wanted to emulate it for that swee sweet $$ instead of doing their own thing and growing the genre outwards with new ideas.
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I can somewhat agree with these parts even though everyone was out to make money. Do you think Brad snorted thousands of dollars into his nose because he was trying to save the industry? Or make better games? Blizzard just did a better job than everyone else. We shouldn't blame Blizzard. We should blame both the players and Blizzard's competition. They just made a better game than EQ and kept updating. No one else had the vision to go much further than that. Something started before the turn of the century was the best this genre's makers could create? Pathetic. We should have had better but maybe @Utnayan is right. If you keep feeding inferior talent money and resources, will they ever transcend past their limitations? The evidence points to no.

I lived in rural WV in late 1999. $50 monthly dial up. No one was paying hourly for internet at that time or they were morons. Digital differences Internet usage went from around 40% in 1999 to around 60% in 2001. Internet usage went up to just 63% by 2004. It did climb to around 73% by 2005. The quick and massive growth of the internet actually helped EQ grow much more than it did WoW. Or maybe games were the driving force for fast internet adoption? Either way, the decision by Blizzard to make their game accessible to the masses was very smart and possibly the primary reason for such huge sub rates. I realize why this was harder for EQ but their CS was always terrible. Did you forget how little they gave a damn to fix problems? Broken aspects of their game? Anything beyond pumping out half-assed expansions twice a year? Sorry, bro. I remember EQ including all of the shit.

Your arguments and several others are making my argument for me. EQ wasn't some amazing game. It came out at just the right time with a specific gimmick that helped sell boxes. Lots and lots of people tried it and did not like it enough to stay. They got tired of SOE never fixing shit and pumping out new expansions twice a year while never fixing shit from the original release. Or they just found something they liked better. Either way, a far better game was made by 2004 and EQ never recovered. They had all of the advantages and pissed them away. Blizzard still says, thank you, I'm sure.

Edit- Poor Dullahan doesn't like any facts thrown in the mix.
 
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Kharzette

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I don't think anyone would dispute warcraft had more subs. Dulla said eq had better retention. It did.

Blizzard is the two buck chuck, they sell a lot of wine. I'm sure some people think it's great too. It even comes in a nice box instead of those bottles with glass you might cut yourself on.
 
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zzeris

zzeris

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Rezz's post didn't seem to sink in. EQ had 38% retention in the first few years, followed by the game completely hemorrhaging subs to the point they hid numbers. That is piss poor retention overall. Even at it's best, it did not meet WoW's first six years.

WoW, first SIX years had massive increases in subs to where they had 12 million playing six years after release. Maybe 30 million tried it but no one knows. The only thing we know, is it kept on growing. Not a couple years, but way past the point of EQs greatest retention success. They still have over 6 million subs while EQ is basically dead and has been dead a very, very long time. Retention....yeah, not what you think it is. WoW gets players to come back or stay. EQ...not so much. Not even in 2001, 2002, or 2003, and definitely not in 2004 when they dropped like a 10 ton boulder. Hell, P99 servers probably see more action than official EQ servers but damn...that game so good. Thousands say so. Thousands can't be wrong.
 
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Rezz

Rezz

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Dullahan said:
None of those things mattered. WoW was just the greatest mmo ever cuz numbers and 6 yr old EQ was always a shoddy, bug-riddled mud ripoff created by a dirtbike riding junkie gardener with no fresh ideas.
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I mean, you said it, not me. And you specifically used numbers to try and prove EQ had better retention rates than WoW, so the reality of your argument is that EQ is not the best mmo ever "cuz numbers" that -you- provided.

This is why sane people have problems with these rose-colored visions of the past. They are only accurate if you fudge the numbers or forget that EQ didn't have PVE game competition for the majority of its relevancy. WoW released and EQ became irrelevant the same day. EQ stopped having 90% of its active playerbase log in within 7 years of release; WoW is at almost twice that age and still has 6m+ subscribers. Trying to redefine "retention" is hilarious and sad at the same time. EQ retained 10% of their population when competition came out; WoW has out-competed every single game that has come out and still has 50+% of their best ever population. Those are absolute facts.

Now lets get back to talking about Pantheon and why it is going to rock after the heat death of the universe.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Kharzette said:
I don't think anyone would dispute warcraft had more subs. Dulla said eq had better retention. It did.

Blizzard is the two buck chuck, they sell a lot of wine. I'm sure some people think it's great too. It even comes in a nice box instead of those bottles with glass you might cut yourself on.
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The fuck? Chuck comes in glass you retard and is a damn fine wine
 
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Dullahan

Dullahan

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Rezz said:
I mean, you said it, not me. And you specifically used numbers to try and prove EQ had better retention rates than WoW, so the reality of your argument is that EQ is not the best mmo ever "cuz numbers" that -you- provided.

This is why sane people have problems with these rose-colored visions of the past. They are only accurate if you fudge the numbers or forget that EQ didn't have PVE game competition for the majority of its relevancy. WoW released and EQ became irrelevant the same day. EQ stopped having 90% of its active playerbase log in within 7 years of release; WoW is at almost twice that age and still has 6m+ subscribers. Trying to redefine "retention" is hilarious and sad at the same time. EQ retained 10% of their population when competition came out; WoW has out-competed every single game that has come out and still has 50+% of their best ever population. Those are absolute facts.

Now lets get back to talking about Pantheon and why it is going to rock after the heat death of the universe.
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I didn't bring the numbers in, but they did point out that EQ had higher retention based on WoW's admittedly poor retention (which did not just begin in 2010 when spoken of openly). Fortunately for Blizzard, WoW had viral popularity (especially in China) on a scale that mitigated the problem. The only people redefining retention are those that are suggesting that retention is the same as replacement - which is how (with 100s of millions in marketing $) they actually continued to grow their subscriber base.

You should really shitcan the nostalgia rose-colored glasses argument. It's a lazy way of shutting down an opposing viewpoint by implying their opinion is based on irrational feelings and fond memories rather than something concrete that can be explained and defended. You will find I'm more than capable of expounding in great detail, upon why I like something, as well as how and why it may be viable in another application (vis-a-vis EQ -> Pantheon).

Yep, EQ became irrelevant because Bliz was doing everything SOE was trying to do in 2004, but better. You won't find me defending what I believe were SOE's poor decisions in fundamentally changing EQ from it's earlier and much better form. Still, I don't believe by remaining true to form, it would have ever attracted the mass appeal of a game like WoW - just that it would have likely insulated EQ by offering a different kind of mmorpg not found in the mainstream.
 
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Rezz

Rezz

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Rose colored goggles = EQ had a better retention rate when there was no competition, and then everyone left when there was. Thus, EQ was better at retaining players than a game that literally was the competition that stole all of EQ's players, and there are still millions of players who have been playing since Vanilla (or even 6 years ago; you can figure out if that counts in cherry-picking land or not) holding subs. But EQ was better at retaining players.

Yes, EQ was better at retaining players in a vacuum. I'll give you that argument. If that is the argument you are making, then I retract my rose-colored goggles statement. But if you are going to ride this retard-train "EQ has better retention than WoW!" straight into the wall, I'm going to continue to refer to your delusion and clear mis-remembrance of the past as "rose-colored goggles."

You are doing that shutting down all on your lonesome. I'm just calling you out on it.

That's why I brought up the community argument in a previous post; the people who have no idea that they are cherry picking the shit out of their information and then comparing it to generalities tend to then go "EQ had superior community to WoW; it's not even comparable!" type retardery. Those people? Don't remember EQ, and certainly have no idea what they are actually comparing the game to. I box up people who think EQ doing well in a vacuum makes it "better" than anything that came when there wasn't a vacuum into the same category of "rose colored goggles."

You want it to be one way, but it's the other way. Unless all you are saying is that EQ had good retention when there were no real alternatives. Then I agree with you.
 
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Dullahan

Dullahan

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UO, Lineage, AC, DAoC, FFXI, AC 2, Lineage 2, SWG, Shadowbane, Eve, City of Heroes were just a few of the titles which EQ weathered prior to WoW.

You're kidding yourself, bud.
 
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Rezz

Rezz

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Look at that list and read off the Fantasy PVE games. I'll wait.

edit: JK, I wont.

FFXI was the closest contender, and it was still largely propped up by asian market sales. It had a respectable but very specific playerbase in the West.

Also, fun fact, but FFXI had a better retention rate than EQ, and lasted into relevancy for many years after EQ became a joke.

Point being, you are comparing apples to hand grenades, and not realizing that just because they fit into your hand does not make them the same.
 
xzi

xzi

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Actually pretty interested, world building has always been my jam it's cool to see more about it.
 
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Reht

Reht

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xzi said:
Actually pretty interested, world building has always been my jam it's cool to see more about it.
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I really enjoyed it when Montresseur was streaming his world building and asset creation sessions. It's kind of dry stuff unless you are interested in the process, but yeah, i am kind of interested in this world building session.
 
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Raign

Raign

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I don't really get why there are so many salty vajayjays about an EQ clone. We've had how many Wow clones 10? 20? Why not try going back to trying group / social focus - it can't fail more than most of those. I mean even Blizzard themselves are recognizing there is SOME demand for that or they would not being doing Classic. Frankly, I would be happy if ANY game came out breaking the mold of MacMMO enough that you can't hit level cap in a month of casual solo play.
 
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Nirgon

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From the November community spotlight and don't ask me why I read them

I want to work my way into a dungeon and see that my group isn't the only group in the entire world.
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ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
 
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Louis

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Raign said:
I don't really get why there are so many salty vajayjays about an EQ clone. We've had how many Wow clones 10? 20? Why not try going back to trying group / social focus - it can't fail more than most of those. I mean even Blizzard themselves are recognizing there is SOME demand for that or they would not being doing Classic. Frankly, I would be happy if ANY game came out breaking the mold of MacMMO enough that you can't hit level cap in a month of casual solo play.
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Usually those same vajayjays are the ones choking on WoW's nuts. Brad also slept with their mom and never called her afterwards, so the hatred goes past video games.
 
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Ambiturner

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Raign said:
I don't really get why there are so many salty vajayjays about an EQ clone. We've had how many Wow clones 10? 20? Why not try going back to trying group / social focus - it can't fail more than most of those. I mean even Blizzard themselves are recognizing there is SOME demand for that or they would not being doing Classic. Frankly, I would be happy if ANY game came out breaking the mold of MacMMO enough that you can't hit level cap in a month of casual solo play.
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Because even a lot of things that people think of as "right", were still done terribly.

Take your idea of getting to level cap slower, for example. If there's so many things to do that out doesn't drag, then that's a great thing. If you have to sit in a room and grind the same 10 mobs every 20 minutes for 30 hours then that's just awful.

Same thing with not feeling like you're the only group that exists as a complaint against instanced dungeons. It falls apart when you have hour(s) long lists just to get the privilege to actually play the game.

A lot of what WoW did differently than EQ was for a reason, but a lot blinded by nostalgia refuse to see it
 
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