Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Zaide

Zaide

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orionTZ1998 said:
How do the die-hard supporters of this game - people who, from what I've seen, eschew games using "pay-to-win" mechanics and want everything to be "earned" - reconcile those beliefs with the fact that paying hundreds (thousands?) of dollars to receive early access to the game is one of the most egregious examples of pay-to-win we've seen thus far? Is your server first dragon kill still "earned" if you had to pay $500 and spend hundreds of hours in beta to develop the strategy to do it?
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1. Taking part in limited testing phases which are wiped long before real launch isn't the same as being able to log in days before the rest of the population and have your gains persist into launch.
2. People see the value in a plan which eliminates hundreds of bugs and exploits before launch instead of launching a game that's been tested by 30 people.
3. Some people actually want to back the game to support it becoming a reality. People realize this MMO which appeals to them isn't going to launch without backers.
4. Poopsockers who play in ultramarathon sessions are going to crush casuals and mid tier players no matter how much experience they have pre launch.
5. Not all the people who pledge for testing phases are the same people crying about P2W.
6. Most people who think of P2W think specifically of cash shops.
 
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Korrupt

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orionTZ1998 said:
How do the die-hard supporters of this game - people who, from what I've seen, eschew games using "pay-to-win" mechanics and want everything to be "earned" - reconcile those beliefs with the fact that paying hundreds (thousands?) of dollars to receive early access to the game is one of the most egregious examples of pay-to-win we've seen thus far? Is your server first dragon kill still "earned" if you had to pay $500 and spend hundreds of hours in beta to develop the strategy to do it?
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That's the primary reason to even raid test, you get to expose your entire guild to mechanics and fights so when it releases its just executing something you've already done a hundred times. Generally the guilds who really need the practice never get world first even testing with weeks of practice so for the guilds interested in top 10 its moot who tests. It's actually good for the testing to have medium end or casual guilds because it shows them how normal people react to mechanics. If you had all WoW mythic raiders you wouldn't get anything but uber guild feedback which is .05% of a games population.

That shit is so far away anyway, we'd be incredibly lucky to get a raid zone on release considering how little is actually done in this game right now.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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Zaide said:
1. Taking part in limited testing phases which are wiped long before real launch isn't the same as being able to log in days before the rest of the population and have your gains persist into launch.
2. People see the value in a plan which eliminates hundreds of bugs and exploits before launch instead of launching a game that's been tested by 30 people.
3. Some people actually want to back the game to support it becoming a reality. People realize this MMO which appeals to them isn't going to launch without backers.
4. Poopsockers who play in ultramarathon sessions are going to crush casuals and mid tier players no matter how much experience they have pre launch.
5. Not all the people who pledge for testing phases are the same people crying about P2W.
6. Most people who think of P2W think specifically of cash shops.
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Good points except the last one. That's a specific group of people I love to ridicule. The ones who rage against P2W and promote 3-6 boxing at the same time. You know, the original way to subvert the game while...paying to win. EQ was built for group play. For people to interact with other people and win...as a group. I hope Brad, Joppa, and Convo make a truly hard game where real people have to group to accomplish anything. Where you can plan ahead your strategies but the actions are fast enough you can't 3-6 box your way through...while bitching about P2W games. Make this game actually difficult...instead of something where you can sit at a spawn point and camp all day with your split personalities.
 
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Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

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I am going to post this on the AMA as it is relevant, but...

A lot of "making the game not ultra boxable" etc. is keeping information only on the server side - with WOW 98% of everything that happens is clear text available on the client - EQ most of that shit had to be haxxored to be seen and used etc.

How much info is the client going to be getting? if its like WOW, then the box kids lord samtheman people will script kiddy up and have multi boxes all set to triggers etc.
 
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BoozeCube

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So on a scale of Age of Conan to WarHammer Online where do people imagine Pantheon landing in the long list of games that could of been?
 
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SuperNaught

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orionTZ1998 said:
How do the die-hard supporters of this game - people who, from what I've seen, eschew games using "pay-to-win" mechanics and want everything to be "earned" - reconcile those beliefs with the fact that paying hundreds (thousands?) of dollars to receive early access to the game is one of the most egregious examples of pay-to-win we've seen thus far? Is your server first dragon kill still "earned" if you had to pay $500 and spend hundreds of hours in beta to develop the strategy to do it?
Click to expand...

Pay to win (the game) does not equal pay to access (the game).
 
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Fight

Fight

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Xadion said:
I am going to post this on the AMA as it is relevant, but...

A lot of "making the game not ultra boxable" etc. is keeping information only on the server side - with WOW 98% of everything that happens is clear text available on the client - EQ most of that shit had to be haxxored to be seen and used etc.

How much info is the client going to be getting? if its like WOW, then the box kids lord samtheman people will script kiddy up and have multi boxes all set to triggers etc.
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The Twitch stream interview they did with MMORPG over the weekend vaguely answered this. They said they are trying to keep as much information server side as possible. They seemed to think the security it provided out weighed the potential benefits. Although, I got the sense it could have been some marketing rhetoric answer... "We don't want our game spoiled or exploited for the players that want to discover it for themselves!"
 
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tyen

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This will be my kid's first MMO. I think at 7 I can have him do repetitive tasks. Im prolly gonna give them 100 shmeckles for beta.

lol

At 4 he is mouse clicking netflix movies and hitting the continue watching button. Had him doin work on ipads/phones before that.

Tryin to make a real assberger out of him. At 8 im reading that you can teach them logic such as loops.
 
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BoozeCube

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tyen said:
This will be my kid's first MMO. I think at 7 I can have him do repetitive tasks. Im prolly gonna give them 100 shmeckles for beta.

lol

At 4 he is mouse clicking netflix movies and hitting the continue watching button. Had him doin work on ipads/phones before that.

Tryin to make a real assberger out of him. At 8 im reading that you can teach them logic such as loops.
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I thought we already established that he wasn't your kid in your train wreck thread? Also with any luck by the time this game comes out in 2032 if there is any justice in the world child services will have already taken them away.
 
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A

a_skeleton_02

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What's the nicest way a community can say "Brad, can you take a back seat on this one?" Every interview and every twitch stream I see Brad just makes a fool of himself and the game. This Joppa guy knows his shit and should be the main face of this game.

Brad just seems out of touch? Maybe he's just trying to relive the glory days, I heard he was a attention whore back in Original EQ as well following around Uber guilds during clears and such.

Pantheon needs less Cohh and Less Brad and more Joppa and his ilk.
 
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Grim1

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a_skeleton_02 said:
What's the nicest way a community can say "Brad, can you take a back seat on this one?" Every interview and every twitch stream I see Brad just makes a fool of himself and the game. This Joppa guy knows his shit and should be the main face of this game.

Brad just seems out of touch? Maybe he's just trying to relive the glory days, I heard he was a attention whore back in Original EQ as well following around Uber guilds during clears and such.

Pantheon needs less Cohh and Less Brad and more Joppa and his ilk.
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The only people who seem to care about this are the same people bashing Pantheon in every second of their waking lives, and claim they will never play the game anyways.
 
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Noble Savage

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Grim1 said:
The only people who seem to care about this are the same people bashing Pantheon in every second of their waking lives, and claim they will never play the game anyways.
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I'm not so sure. There hasn't been a stream yet where Brad hasn't said things that sounded completely out of left field and had to be immediatly corrected by one of the other Devs. True we all know who Brad is and therefore like to poke fun at him, but I can't imagine a person new to this genre would listen to those streams and think anything other then "who the fuck is that dipshit". I don't think it shows well for the organization to have Brad as a mouthpiece for it. I get it that its his "idea" and I give him full credit for pushing this game forward, but we all have our strenghts and weaknesses and doing promo work isn't one of Brads strengths. He just doesn't have the ablitity to get you fired up about the game the way Joppa does. I listen to Brad and all I hear is bullshit vague answers from someone who is desperatly trying to cover up the fact that he doesn't have the actual answer. I work all day with people like this so perhaps I am jaded lol. This project can be successful if everyone stays in their lane. Brads lane isn't PR.
 
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wilkxus

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@a_skeleton_02 spot on. Joppa does a great job staying focused on the relevant practical aspects of the game . Whatever the vision is, it needs to be experienced, not philosophized about. It is time for the *vision* (the speack of "were making a group game" yada yada yada) to back off into shadows and let the work speak for itself: let the devs *shine* and sell the game, save the philosophy for a design/producer stream if anyone cares after game releases and plays well.

All the proof is in the pudding. They really need to start selling and talking up working play systems (beyond old school EQ) they can demo, showing how fun and exciting the systems *are* to play. Whatever the game/production vision, if it is worth caring about, just needs to be implemented (in code) and demonstrated well to show its fun and works well.
 
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D

Dreaderus

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Noble Savage said:
I'm not so sure. There hasn't been a stream yet where Brad hasn't said things that sounded completely out of left field and had to be immediatly corrected by one of the other Devs. True we all know who Brad is and therefore like to poke fun at him, but I can't imagine a person new to this genre would listen to those streams and think anything other then "who the fuck is that dipshit". I don't think it shows well for the organization to have Brad as a mouthpiece for it. I get it that its his "idea" and I give him full credit for pushing this game forward, but we all have our strenghts and weaknesses and doing promo work isn't one of Brads strengths. He just doesn't have the ablitity to get you fired up about the game the way Joppa does. I listen to Brad and all I hear is bullshit vague answers from someone who is desperatly trying to cover up the fact that he doesn't have the actual answer. I work all day with people like this so perhaps I am jaded lol. This project can be successful if everyone stays in their lane. Brads lane isn't PR.
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The good news is that this can happen alot, you have an idiot (or perecieved to be one) who is working with a bunch of folks who has been put in a position of some authority or decision making but if the global vison is of quality that is hopefully where it all leads. At the end of the day, Brad wants this to work I am certain as much as anyone else.

The bad news is knowing the amount of painstaking effort, and time and blood sweat and tears it takes to make a piece of software go from a bug ridden nightmare into something of merit, and the cost/salaries/time investment which is typically met with an expected time to break even/time where benefit of the project becomes profitable being the end result. Here perhaps no one is looking to get rich but as folks have pointed out, you can't expect anyone to work for free unless this is truly a hobby thing for many of them.
 
Z

zinc_turtle

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Xadion said:
I am going to post this on the AMA as it is relevant, but...

A lot of "making the game not ultra boxable" etc. is keeping information only on the server side - with WOW 98% of everything that happens is clear text available on the client - EQ most of that shit had to be haxxored to be seen and used etc.

How much info is the client going to be getting? if its like WOW, then the box kids lord samtheman people will script kiddy up and have multi boxes all set to triggers etc.
Click to expand...
As Mick said, they can't stop it. Pantheon will have Tracking. (as in Ranger/Druid)
As long as that is true, more information than is currently visible by your client for your character is going to be in the memory space of the client, or transferred from the server to client on demand. Either way, even without Tracking? More information than is currently visible by your client viewport for your character will be available. Showing that WILL happen. 100% guaranteed. Even just showing all the mobs around a character in a volumetric 3D sphere, with an associated world geometry map will be more than what you can see with a typical viewport, and isn't anything "extra" from what information the client NEEDS. But still a huge advantage in situational awareness.

Honestly, as much as people hate ShowEQ, all it does is show what the client needs to have, visualized in a different way. Yes, you could argue loading every mob in whole zone isn't always ideal, but if you don't, you end up having to reload on every ~teleport(), or suffer with pop-in, which players hate as "immersion breaking".

Anyway, the only way this doesn't burn the game is if it doesn't have Krono. Which, so far, it won't. How is that relevant? Because without Krono, you (or anyone) isn't drawn to use your game as a money laundering mechanism, officially. Like EQ1 TLP and similar games with that one magic money-laundering-enabling feature. Perma camping every stat item in the game is, to a large extent, the consequence of Krono sales, and has resulted in keeping EQ1 TLP on life support for years.
 
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tyen

tyen

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zinc_turtle said:
As Mick said, they can't stop it. Pantheon will have Tracking. (as in Ranger/Druid)
As long as that is true, more information than is currently visible by your client for your character is going to be in the memory space of the client, or transferred from the server to client on demand. Either way, even without Tracking? More information than is currently visible by your client viewport for your character will be available. Showing that WILL happen. 100% guaranteed. Even just showing all the mobs around a character in a volumetric 3D sphere, with an associated world geometry map will be more than what you can see with a typical viewport, and isn't anything "extra" from what information the client NEEDS. But still a huge advantage in situational awareness.

Honestly, as much as people hate ShowEQ, all it does is show what the client needs to have, visualized in a different way. Yes, you could argue loading every mob in whole zone isn't always ideal, but if you don't, you end up having to reload on every ~teleport(), or suffer with pop-in, which players hate as "immersion breaking".

Anyway, the only way this doesn't burn the game is if it doesn't have Krono. Which, so far, it won't. How is that relevant? Because without Krono, you (or anyone) isn't drawn to use your game as a money laundering mechanism, officially. Like EQ1 TLP and similar games with that one magic money-laundering-enabling feature. Perma camping every stat item in the game is, to a large extent, the consequence of Krono sales, and has resulted in keeping EQ1 TLP on life support for years.
Click to expand...

good post.

Also having mob locations update when a PC is withon a radius is going to be really bad for performance. The constant calculations would be hella rough at scale.
 
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