Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Anomander Rake_sl said:

Wait... you guys have been at thissince September? Oh lawd. I don't even...

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That's exactly my point. If it's been since then, how come no research was done on KS. I understand the point that they are devs and are not used things like crowdfunding, etc. But that's even more reason to do research beforehand, look at some other projects and see what they did, etc...

storybricks would be interesting..

AmberT._sl said:

I was probably too harsh in my post. I know you're working hard. I'm impressed even. But we want you to work smart too. I don't want to sound arrogant, but if you're going to make any further changes to the KS page, why not run it by us first? Or if not the whole board, preview it to the ones on here who seem to have some experience with Kickstarter.

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Don't do this. Find one person who you trust and use them as a sounding board. Preferably someone with media, journalism, sales, or marketing experience. Don't crowd source ideas to a group of random people.

Grave_sl said:

It's probably already been commented on, but I can't keep up with this thread at work. Haha.

Grammar/punctuation errors and poor wording aside (but seriously, that thing reads like it was just word vomited this morning and posted) I would really suggest reworking the class reveals to actually have some interesting substance to them. Revealing a Cleric and describing it as the typical Cleric isn't anything that is going to get people excited/encourage them to back. Don't get me wrong, Ilikethe basic traditional classes and their themes, but that also means I'm not really interested in you telling me what a Cleric is - we know that already. The few actual abilities talked about are pretty much the standard repertoire, with the summoning of "Paladins" being the only thing that stands out a bit.

Even if you can't call out specific spell/ability names and their full descriptions yet, I'd suggest adding a section below the description for each class that looks something like this.

Play a Cleric if you want to:

• Customize your healing style--melee or ranged--by carefully selecting your abilities and equipment
• Be themost durableof the healing classes
• Be the cornerstone of your group by providing thestrongest direct healingand useful buffs only available from a Cleric
• Possess unique tools that make youmore effective against Undeadthan any other class
• Summon petswithout the hassle of pet management, sending it into the fray while you focus on your spells or attacks
• Offer thebest resurrectionspells to your group or raid for faster recovery

At a glance, this list highlights the unique features of the class but also calls out elements of the core game to get people thinking old school. It also causes them to become curious about other class mechanics and what group makeup might look like. If I see Cleric has the best direct healing, I'm starting to think about what other classes you might reveal and particularly what other healing classes might bring to the table. When I see they're more effective against Undead, it makes me excited to consider whether or not I could customize a Cleric that can solo Undead. When I see pets, I think that's not normally something Clerics have and you tell me I don't have to manage it - which then leads me to believe you'll be revealing a class that does manage pets. When I see best resurrection I start to think about the different types there might be and also whether or not resurrection will soften the death penalty like in EQ.

You aren't actually revealing or saying much more than the blurb did, but it gets me thinking about actually playing the class and what this game will be like.

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Excellent post. That kind of description would be so much more interesting to me.

Aradune_sl said:

We're not KS experts.

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This we know. .

If you're going to keep this ks going consider Laerazi's, Draegen's and Grave's points and spend some time redoing the video to something that can be forwarded on without a lengthy "I know it's a little awkward but..." and redo the ks site so it's clear what is going on in the game.

Video wise
-eliminate gameplay videos
-add more concept art
-longer discussion of how it is different with emphasis on bringing back eq like grouping.

Draegan_sl said:

Don't do this. Find one person who you trust and use them as a sounding board. Preferably someone with media, journalism, sales, or marketing experience. Don't crowd source ideas to a group of random people.

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Agree to a point..maybe use small group of KS smarties? I have found sometimes extra eyes can see what one person tends to miss.

Big Flex_sl said:

storybricks would be interesting..

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Storybricks is not SoE's to give out so unless Brad pays for a license he won't be using it.

Draegan_sl said:

Don't do this. Find one person who you trust and use them as a sounding board. Preferably someone with media, journalism, sales, or marketing experience. Don't crowd source ideas to a group of random people.

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This and exactly this. It's how the pledge tiers have gotten to this state. If you ask a mob what the best course of action is, you will always get the lowest common denominator.

I feel like I'm missing something here. Shadowrun Returns pulled in two million dollars and it felt like little more than a beefed-up flashgame. But somehow Brad and his team are going to make an MMO (of all the genres out there) with 800k? Honestly, this seems completely unbelievable and ludicrous.

bytes_sl said:

I feel like I'm missing something here. Shadowrun Returns pulled in two million dollars and it felt like little more than a beefed-up flashgame. But somehow Brad and his team are going to make an MMO (of all the genres out there) with 800k? Honestly, this seems completely unbelievable and ludicrous.

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someone hasn't been following along!

bytes_sl said:

I feel like I'm missing something here. Shadowrun Returns pulled in two million dollars and it felt like little more than a beefed-up flashgame. But somehow Brad and his team are going to make an MMO (of all the genres out there) with 800k? Honestly, this seems completely unbelievable and ludicrous.

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Because they didn't come out and say it was a glorified flash game. Shadowrun sucked, it's an example of a kickstarter just preying on nostalgia, and there's plenty more of those to come (wasteland 2, torment)

That really has nothing to do with anything

Aradune_sl said:

We're not KS experts, we're MMO development experts, and a lot of how one uses KS is radically different than convention game development, where a lot of these ideas wouldn't be even talked about for 1-2 years.

Honestly, if there is a 'rush' it's that we've been working hard since September pro bono, and people have bills to pay.

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So what happens in a year(or less) when your 800k is used up? How will people pay their bills for the year or two after that? I've already backed - but this is the one question that frightens me.

Hateyou_sl said:

What do you think Pantheon has done so far? They've basically got $100k+ by saying "remember the good old days?..."

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I should have said preying on nostalgia with an existing IP. I think Pantheon is just a bad kickstarter.

And the excuse "lol we're game devs, not kickstarter experts, we don't know the system" is fucking ridiculous. Learn the goddamn system then. The future of your project (which is apparently one of passion) relies on it. Take the time to figure out what works and what doesn't, what's going to look like shit and what isn't.

I'm really not impressed by what I'm reading

Utnayan_sl said:

I disagree. Because what we should be doing as gamers (and myself included in this as well) is quit buying the shoveled garbage that keeps getting spoon fed to us by relic designers that know we will at least try it, simply because we are passionate and easily taken advantage of in this space while starved for a decent game. They really couldn't care less about a successful kickstarter. They (Publishers) will look at it as a way to siphon money out of gullible gamers as a way to help fund development so they do not have too, and may be able to avoid an initial capital expense all together.

Nothing is going to change until we stop purchasing garbage and also stop ponying up for Kickstarter's while throwing feathers into 50 mile an hour headwinds hoping something flies back into Forest Gump's book. Unfortunately the end result if we actually did that (Which at this stage of quality we see today, would bankrupt the industry) are publishers not realizing the opportunity cost, but resigning the market, not caring they just destroyed it; because taking accountability is wrong in this industry. Which is why nothing ever changes.

Many people asked me in PM's what I think of this. I wish Brad all the best and I hope he has changed his life for the better. I was very vitroil with Vanguard in the past because I knew he was absolutely full of shit. Obviously now we all know that. I am vitroil with Elder Scrolls Online because I know Matt Firor and Paul Sage are absolutely full of shit. I was pissed with Rich Vogel and Gordon Walter because I knew they were full of shit. And I know that Dave Georgeson is full of shit. Notice the pattern.

Hopefully, he isn't full of shit this time. But that would be like saying any of the above learned their lessons from the past. And while I know for the fact the others won't, I am hoping after Brad's last come to Jesus, it made more of an impact. And I do not know this for sure yet, but I cannot help but think out of the response from EQ Next, that Smedley just didn't send McQuaid loose for a Kickstarter campaign knowing full well if they reach $800k, SOE will publish. As a business decision, they will have each of it's own game in the genre.

FYI: Anyone that offers more than $40 for this on Kickstarter, or any Kickstarter for that matter, is certifiably insane and should have their internet taken away by court order.

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Well, while some games were utter shit, a lot of them still had things to offer that were entertaining and aside from a few poor choices (age of conan) I don't really regret buying most of them. I agree that for the whole industry to change we would have to stop buying games. Or at least these types of games. That said though, I don't want them to stop making World of Warcraft or SWTOR or TSWs because sometimes those games are fun and people like different things. I just want them to make Everquest also. If that makes sense.

Right now you can see from the posts even here with tons of supporters there are quite a few people who are flat out YOU CAN'T MAKE EQ TODAY NO ONE WOULD PLAY. Maybe some money thrown specifically at a WE ARE MAKING AN EQ type of project would garner some interest.

You're probably right that it wouldn't though. You can look at some past examples like Shadowbane. Shadowbane was steaming pile of dogshit it ran like shit, looked like shit, played like shit, crashed, had god knows how many bugs, etc etc. Yet a ton of people bought into it anyway. When it quickly crashed and burned all I saw were posts of YEP YOU CAN'T MAKE A PVP GAME. NO MONEY IN THAT SHIT. ONLY DBAGS LIKE PVP ANYWAY. Not YOU CAN'T MAKE THE SHITTIEST MMO TO DATE AND EXPECT PEOPLE TO PLAY. It was that no one wanted a PVP game.

The same thing with Vanguard and "hardcore" games. VG at release was virtually unplayable on many machines. Crossing chunks was like zoning in EQ but with random results lol. Some areas were completely devoid of content. Things were unfinished. The game was weird because it was like a few months before release they randomly decided to go with a more WoW-like approach and add in tons of quest based leveling that wasn't originally in scope or something. I don't know. Again everyone was like SEE HARDCORE GAMES ARE STUPID. INSTANCING IS NECESSARY. NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY THAT KIND OF GAME. Not NO LOVE FOR UNFINISHED SHIT THAT RUNS LIKE ASS.

As you said what will probably happen if this is successful is that studios won't be like HOLY SHIT PEOPLE WANT EQ. They'll probably just be like OH FUCK YES. SOMEONE GET RAPH KOSTER ON THE PHONE. LET'S MAKE A GAME AND HAVE THE PLAYERS PAY FOR IT FROM DAY ONE. WHAT KIND OF GAME? WHO CARES. HAVE HIM SAY SOME SHIT ABOUT SWG AND LET'S MILK THIS COW.

I hope you're wrong. You're probably not though.

Also TESO looks like complete shit. I agree.

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

According to Kicktraq they got over $20k yesterday. That should fall in the range you hoped for:Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen by Visionary Realms, Inc. :: Kicktraq

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I am using 2:40est to 2:40est they made 16k in that time.

I don't know how that website does it but I Guess it's simply from midnight to midnight.

That projection seems wrong... Stats analysis is my pretty hardcore hobby and part time job, although anyone could come up with a decent projection for this pretty easily. Based on the numbers for the other MMO KS I just don't see how that works. Maybe I will take an hour or two so and really look at the numbers and come up with a good projection range.

Even if it does Average 20k a day from now till the end your only ending up with 835k. Where the fuck does that 1.1m come from? I hope it's not simply taking an average of whats happened so far and projecting that, thats pretty useless.

Anyways I badly want this to be funded I just do not like the numbers.

fuffalo_sl said:

So what happens in a year(or less) when your 800k is used up? How will people pay their bills for the year or two after that? I've already backed - but this is the one question that frightens me.

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He'll say "we're developers, not publishing experts, we didn't budget accordingly" then snort some more crushed oxy