Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Aradune_sl said:

Hey guys, there's a design idea and issue that we're debating, and we'd really like your feedback.

Ok, so Pantheon is about a huge, interesting open world to explore. We don't want people teleporting all over the place, missing out on content and the grandeur of Terminus.

So far we've said that there will be some opportunities to teleport to some locations as long as you've travelled there before without teleporting. Kind of like the Velious teleports.

We've also said that if you're at the entrance to a dungeon, a group within that dungeon can teleport you to them (likely a spell shared by some classes).

But from a design and philosophical standpoint, huge open world to explore and teleports/quick travel seem mutually exclusive to many who are interested in Pantheon.

So what about an elaborate LFG system? A dungeon finder? Someway to quickly travel to adventure areas where other people have already gathered and are trying to form groups?

it's anti-exploration, but it's pro-grouping. And exploration and grouping are both two major components of what makes Pantheon the game we're so excited to be working on.

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

When I said the community would be more involved with Pantheon than any of the other games we've worked on, I meant it. I love doing interviews and chats and videos. I really enjoy answering future players' questions. But this issue is turning out to be a tough one and we could really use your help and feedback.

Thanks in advance!

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Personally, no matter the mechanic, and I am in favor of teleports and group meet ups etc I think the player always has to make at least a single trip there on foot. In other words you could not be teleported, pulled, or group stoned any place you had not physically traveled to first.

If you want to make it more complicated you could have each trip allow for only x number of subsequent ports. Once you used up your x ports you would have to travel by foot for x more. On top of that npcs or better yet players could sell stones that allow additional trips. Regardless that first trip has to be on your own even if it is to meet people to do a dungeon.

Summons in a a dungeon is worse that porting around the world. EQ and VG had great dungeons and hopefully Pantheon will also. Too many people will miss the dungeon crawl/break in experience if you just let people be summoned in, even if they are at the entrance already. And then you get alt armies camped deep inside of dungeons to summon people in and log out. Mages and their bag of pearls.... If dungeon X has a specific faction it granted that unlocked a summoning portal at the enterance I'd be ok with that. Basically if someone has spent enough time at a dungeon, the trip there is probably redundant and not new and exciting anymore, so let them have quick access to it. Maybe even a semi rare drop in the dungeon you can collect that lets you teleport their. Or drained attuning stones that are one time use as a drop. Then a charging station deep in the dungeon you have to get to and charge it up. The one time use system could lead to frustration if they are hard to chage and you use it to then hear the group is actually breaking up now and stone wasted... So a more permanent solution would be better.

If you are looking for a group, you travel to where you want to adventure and type /ooc "Level 20 Enchanter LFG," or you type that into guild chat. If your friends are grouping across the world map, then provide a means for them to summon you using INGAME mechanics, not UI elements!

Give the characters means of facilitating travel, not the UI. Ultima Online used a spell called "Gate," which created a very brief portal that could be entered at either end. Something similar to this might work, without immersion breaking UI gimmicks. Something like EQ Mage's "Call of the Hero" spell, but can be used world wide, as long as the players are grouped.

Dungeon finders, group finders, all of that is the antithesis of what your target audience wants. If there is a line to drawn in the proverbial sand, draw it here.

Solve this issue organically, using an in game skill, spell, device what have you. Do NOT rely on cheesy UI pop ups which break immersion and lead to lazy behavior. If you want to group, go out and find a group. EQ had none of this lazy modern bullshit and EVERYONE grouped all the time, so we must have found some way to survive without crutches eh?

Vandyn_sl said:

I think LFG is fine as a grouping tool to form groups but I don't think it should be used to port you to the dungeon or wherever the group is, regardless of how many times that player has been there. Go that route and you'll eventually end up with the WoW syndrome of everyone hanging in town looking for group = empty world. I think you should limit teleports to certain classes. I think isolated ports (like PoK books) should be extremely limited as well.

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Except you have to balance this versus the reality that this is supposed to be a large spread out world with grouping as the primary focus. So there has to be a better solution than have 6-8 people suck it while one friend runs there.

Like I suggested above, to get summoned to a dungeon you would have first previously visited it by foot/mount. That visit would allow for you to be teleported there ten times. After that you have to go back by foot to get ten more ports or you can purchase stones from npcs or preferably pcs. (These stones would only work after you visited the site the first time).

I'm of the opinion that this game should embrace its nicheness and not implement a ton of fast-travel and porting. So I favor open-world above all. 5-10 minutes of "world travel" isn't much.. everybody should have to travel to the instance every time, not just the first time. Travel to the dungeon entrance can embrace all sorts of encounters and game elements and be considered "part" of the dungeon itself in a way.

An LFG tool to help organize groups, sure, just no insta-porting please. There's about 70 MMO's I could play where the world is irrelevant. Can we have just one MMO where the world actually matters again?

Another concept I'd like to see is very limited portal locations. Maybe one for each quadrant of the world. The farther an area / zone / dungeon is from a portal the more difficult it is.

Still very much along the lines of what I posted before.

If in doubt err on the side of world feeling > convenience.

And when putting in convenience keep it rare and nothing that trumps any class abilities.

Another thought is a class that can summon. Dungeon stones or poi stones. Perhaps make it so all stones share the sane lore tag and all stones disappear within five minutes of logging off. This creates a way for a class to make money from other players and the stones could go to dungeon entrances or even better nearby poi used to form groups.

@Aradune

My vote is 100% for no porting LFG system. If you want to go somewhere faster then running with a speed buff, then you need the help of a port class. A LFG system along the lines of a better polished one that was seen in LDoN in EQ, is whats best.

The only issue with this setup is wait time on replacements in a group. Wait time from finding a port, and running from the nearest port in spot to the group. Let player driven emergent behavior handle the time it takes to find a port. And you devs can place portal locations done with consideration to travel time. Just remember, new recruits don't need to get there instantly. You've said yourself that the game is being designed with downtime in mind, and this is one of those cases were downtime can naturally come from. Also if you're truly considering more flexible group sizes like a soft 6-8, then the immediate replacement of a group member shouldn't be required as the group can manage until the new guy gets there.

In dungeon summons are fine, as long as their not allowed to be abused to much.

@Aradune - what are your thoughts on bringing back traps ... like D&D and adding trap removal skills to a few classes ?

Aradune_sl said:

So how can we strike a balance here? How do we offer game mechanics that are focused on people finding groups, making friends, eventually guilds, etc., but not shrink the world by allowing people to port all over the place? Where do we draw a line in the sand? Is finding groups and making friends more important or less important than a vast open world to explore, where taking the time to travel to an exotic and distant location gives you a great sense of accomplishment?

Pantheon already has a strong Vision(TM) behind it. We are wrapping up the high level design documents. The team is ideologically on the same page and agree with our goals and tenets. With probably one exception, the one I'm bringing up here. We go back and forth on it. Heck, I can argue either side just as convincingly.

So what do you guys think? Where is the balance? What tenet takes priority over the other?

Thanks in advance!

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First, for LFG system.

Look for the spot between WoW, and nothing. The goal here should be to take the really rough edges off but don't automate everything. Make it so the the LFG system is a collection of information that can be accessed by the player. Nothing major, just a command showing who is looking for more people and the ability to put your own name into a pool of people looking to group. You don't need to automate it, but make the information accessible and easy to use.

Next, for travel.

Give the players the tools, and they will fix it. Give at least 30% of your classes some form of teleport. And have a functionality that makes the landing more precise if there is a group the "teleport" class can use. What doesthatmean? Well, take for instance if your Wizard has teleport. Normally, he can only teleport to a spire. However, if he's in a dungeon, his group can form a minispire as long as he marks the current ground (So, he has to already be within the location he wants to bring the person to), allowing him to port out, grab someone and port back to the dungeon with them. (The main thing within this power is to allow group maintenance by getting people.)

Give different flavors of this to a couple classes. Groups shouldWANTclasses to manipulate theworld--travel manipulationshouldbe a power, not a global utility. When you're thinking of who to get for that last group slot, a real benefit should be a class that can allow your group to travel easier or allow people to travel easier to you. If travel is dirt easy, then this is a whole spectrum of class balance you miss out on.

And that's what you really need to look at: The size of the world IS a problem. It is.YOUshould not fix it, the players should. Give the power to the players, you're just the story teller, man; they need to shape the world though. The method by which you go about this can be different. But don't just fix it "for" the players like some hand of god. Make them feel the world's size by relying on others. Or getting a cool advantage for having powers that "shrink" the world. Problems are what make a game fun,ifthe players can solve them. WoW's main problem today is that the developers solved 99% of the problems for the players, and focus all player attention on mob killing or player killing. That creates a very low expiration date on anything because the difficulty and problems in the world are so very narrow. The fact is, problems in a world should never focus around one element--travel should be a problemplayersovercome.

As long as you keep that element that travel is a concern that needs to be addressed? You can make the world a bit smaller through the players without completely diminishing it.

Scayre_sl said:

Keep in mind once you give to the players instant dungeon travel (or something similar), it is very difficult to take it away.

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And don't forget, Brad, that you'll have to take into account those abilities existing when you're designing content. How much content could raids skip because guilds camped Mages who had CoTH at safe spots near boss mobs? Wasn't Vex Thal changed to require certain NPCs taken out before you could progress to stop guilds only killing Aten Ha Ra? Then you had the issue with CoTH clearing aggro and all the mess that caused. The 'toss up' portion of Gravity Flux was removed because it let people skip content.

So a given ability might seem innocuous at first can easily end up screwing your entire game. Better to take a very conservative approach for spells that allow people to traverse some distance and bypass content. We might use it in ways you never imagined.

ThunderCougarFalconBird_sl said:

I'm of the opinion that this game should embrace its nicheness and not implement a ton of fast-travel and porting. So I favor open-world above all. 5-10 minutes of "world travel" isn't much.. everybody should have to travel to the instance every time, not just the first time. Travel to the dungeon entrance can embrace all sorts of encounters and game elements and be considered "part" of the dungeon itself in a way.

An LFG tool to help organize groups, sure, just no insta-porting please. There's about 70 MMO's I could play where the world is irrelevant. Can we have just one MMO where the world actually matters again?

Another concept I'd like to see is very limited portal locations. Maybe one for each quadrant of the world. The farther an area / zone / dungeon is from a portal the more difficult it is.

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Yes, this is correct. Forget what I said about summoning people. Fuck that, seriously.

Make this a world, give players travel spells, and call it a day. I'm sick to death of fast food MMOs, with drive thru dungeon runs and McRaid finders.

Agonizing the Bait Master_sl said:

Pretty sure ann and merlin are the same person

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ahh no way, my grammar is WAY better. take note.

shabushabu_sl said:

@Aradune - what are your thoughts on bringing back traps ... like D&D and adding trap removal skills to a few classes ?

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We want traps. Since we have a good physics engine, we think we can bring back traps and actually have them realistically do (bad) things to you.

Guys, thanks for all of the answers -- I will be reading through them in detail tonight. You guys are awesome!

I'm against an LFG or easy summoning tool. Relegate summon, gate, or port spells to specific classes. Make these spells require ingredients; including a semi-rare no-drop item from within the zone you wish to port, or summon an individual to. In addition to that, include sparse questlines with port/summon clicky rewards for some of the zones. Give limited charges to these rewards.

These are just a few ideas, but I hate the thought of fast travel, unless there is some time/pain invested in the process. One of the changes I hated in EQ is when they moved to fast travel. I believe my first experience with this was when the boats in North Ro were removed for travel to Velious, and replaced by an NPC. Although traveling by the boat took longer, it allowed time to socialize with other players, and I never found that experience boring.