Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Agraza · Dec 10, 2013

I do want better control of it though. Auto-attack clashing sounds, wolf yipping, and spider bleeting sounds were just pollution. Either make everything pleasant and useful to hear every half second or do away with the cacophony of pointless noises. Mostly I am referring to spellcasting when I speak positively of EQ's distinct audio. Most other areas needed work in being relevant to the user, and, in the absence of being useful, I should be able to adjust their volume with greater precision.

Draegan_sl · Dec 10, 2013

Brahma_sl said:
Nah.

I just want an MMO that "forces" grouping. Forces teamwork for even leveling content. Where your reputation as one of the best on your server is known, because we arent playing with people we will never see again. Where my rewards are earned not given. Where death means I fucked up and should pay for it. Where tokens get me on the damn boat and not a piece of gear.

Ya know...where I have to PLAY the game and shit like that.

Ok so you want to play a game where reputation matters. Here are a few things that would have to exist.

1) The content of the game in tuned so that you need multiple people to complete it. I.e. Damage dealers and Damage takers. No tank, no go.
2) For a person without friends going into the game, you need to be on your best behavior or others won't play with you, thus you would be stuck doing nothing.
3) If you come into the game with friends, you are free to treat everyone like shit because your friends will play with you anyway. You're mostly playing with friends in the first place.
4) You get to a point where your gear is better than average it doesn't matter what your personality is like, you're gear is your reputation.

So, I assume you're part of #2 where you want to be able to make friends and be respected for your ability to hit a skill rotation and not die. You love the idea of people asking you to group with them as soon as you log on because you're that awesome. You're that roaming hero of the land that is basking in your own glory.

Problem is, everyone wants that.

Two questions:

So the question I'm posing to you is, how big or how small do the servers/community have to be so that your skill or good deeds don't get drowned out by the multitudes of people playing the game? What is the size of the population before your skilled play breaks through the white noise?

With online play becoming more prevalent and true skill based games (FPS, MOBA etc) how do you separate yourself from the pack in an autoattack/skill rotation/non aiming environment?

Dumar_sl · Dec 10, 2013

Arden_sl said:
Can't agree more. I really can't emphasize enough how amazing EQs sounds were. Not just the music, but everything- ambient/environment (that hollow wind sound with the strange bird cries), footsteps, mob sounds, fighting sounds. One of the best was spell sounds. In EQ when you cast a spell it really felt like you were calling down the thunder. Even the dying sounds mobs and pcs made were great.

Sound is one if those areas mmos after EQ really neglected and they suffered for it, because it is one of those essential elements at turns a 'game' into a 'world'.

On this point, designers also fail to understand the relatedness of mechanics. For example, the dreaded crunching sound in EQ when you got hit hard (likely by a lion from behind as you were walking in EC). That sound SUCKED to hear if you weren't expecting it. It was visceral.

Why? I would say because death mattered. If you put that same sound in WoW, it wouldn't have the same meaning.

So the effectiveness of that sound was directly related to the death penalty mechanic.

Agraza · Dec 10, 2013

IIRC, that sound played when you took a hit greater than 10% of your health.

Heallun · Dec 10, 2013

Laura_sl said:
Thou speaketh the truth, my friend!
Well said

When you were a gnome; you really were tiny and you felt it. Looking up to see Ogre's face was a big boost to immersion. But FPV is not only about immersion but it also gives you the option to create claustrophobic dungeons (unlike in 3rd Person View games where everything is huge so the camera can give you a clear picture of what's going on).

In FPV you can look at other players faces up close; looking at the details of their faces.
You are in the heat of battle, swinging at your foes. It's a huge deal in my opinion and it must be forced or don't bother with it because if it's only an option players will just go with 3rd Person View since it gives tactical advantage.

First person doesn't lend itself well to the type of combat they want to make, though. They want you to fly through the air, whirlwind through mobs, etc. It FPV works better in more...realistic combat, like chivalry. You move slow because you are slow. I, too, hope for first person but i don't see much of a chance for it.

Agraza · Dec 10, 2013

Realistic combat is not slow. And the end of a sword is moving a great deal faster than the hand holding it if swung in an arc. Realistic combat is very fast, and when dealing with bladed weapons, rapidly conclusive.

Heallun · Dec 10, 2013

Agraza_sl said:
Realistic combat is not slow. And the end of a sword is moving a great deal faster than the hand holding it if swung in an arc. Realistic combat is very fast, and when dealing with bladed weapons, rapidly conclusive.

Aye, but our vision is much better than we get in first person mmo's on the whole as well. We have an enormous field of view and peripheral vision which just hasn't been done well on a monitor to my knowledge. We also have a somatic sense of where our limbs our and how our body is moving without actually having to see them.

Rapid conclusions is also something that's difficult to do in an mmo that I've seen so far. I'd like to see a bushido blade / dynasty warriors mmo cross (or hell, just mount and blade + chivalry cross

) before moving that type of combat into a mmo environment.

edit: Oculus rift seems like it'll be the saving grace of first person gaming, though. Allowing monitors of all sizes to take up 100% of a person's field of view is just too perfect of an idea. The complete occlusion of the outside world also really adds to the immersion in FPV gameplay.

Explosivo_sl · Dec 10, 2013

Arden_sl said:
Can't agree more. I really can't emphasize enough how amazing EQs sounds were. Not just the music, but everything- ambient/environment (that hollow wind sound with the strange bird cries), footsteps, mob sounds, fighting sounds. One of the best was spell sounds. In EQ when you cast a spell it really felt like you were calling down the thunder. Even the dying sounds mobs and pcs made were great.

Sound is one if those areas mmos after EQ really neglected and they suffered for it, because it is one of those essential elements at turns a 'game' into a 'world'.

The laughter of decaying skeletons still haunts my dreams

Mr Creed · Dec 10, 2013

I really would not want to play EQ'99 if I had the choice. I never went back to it after 2004, ever, and never cared for any progression server or emu. Been there, done that.

What i want is a game that diverges from the evolution the genre has taken for the last decade and tries something different based on the EQ model. There are innovations in several of those newer games I would appreciate, but too much that isnt entirely to my tastes. I've said it a few times but if I were to sum up what I want in one word, it's immersion.

Heallun · Dec 10, 2013

Explosivo_sl said:
The laughter of decaying skeletons still haunts my dreams

I legit had a nightmare about the spider screech. Was AAXPing in velks for like weeks straight. Chills, man. eeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeee.

PhoneticHalo_sl · Dec 10, 2013

Mr Creed_sl said:
I really would not want to play EQ'99 if I had the choice. I never went back to it after 2004, ever, and never cared for any progression server or emu. Been there, done that.

What i want is a game that diverges from the evolution the genre has taken for the last decade and tries something different based on the EQ model. There are innovations in several of those newer games I would appreciate, but too much that isnt entirely to my tastes. I've said it a few times but if I were to sum up what I want in one word, it's immersion.

I agree.
But it requires making a game with no instant gratification. Where you cant just log in and do what you want with out planning and time. And somehow things taking time have become an issue for mmo players? The same players that jump from one mmo to next every 3 months. Or god forbid someone can play more than you and get further or have better things.
It all comes down to aGamevs aWorld.

Dahkoht_sl · Dec 10, 2013

Agraza_sl said:
IIRC, that sound played when you took a hit greater than 10% of your health.

Dumar and you struck something with the sound thing.

I can actually remember times of hearing that sound as a griffon hit me at an inn in the east commons.

I can actually remember a sound and moment from a game almost 15 years ago, and can't remember shit from most game the past 5+ years.

Dumar_sl · Dec 10, 2013

^

This is actually the pluralistic, hypocritical bullshit that has taken an ideological and financial hold on the industry: a dinner date & a movie can take 5 hours in the evening, but any dungeon that's longer than an hour is 'bad design'. Any dungeon crawl that requires a choice or thinking on the part of the player is 'bad design'.

Yeah, fuck you gaming industry. You can shove all these new design paradigms because ALL of them fucking suck and serve no purpose except to extract as much profit as possible from every single customer.

Fuck you right in your ear. Like you even have an ear left after we've been SCREAMING in it for the past decade and Kotick cock has been shoved so far into it. Yes, I still get angry talking about wasted potential.

Heallun · Dec 10, 2013

Dumar_sl said:
^

This is actually the pluralistic, hypocritical bullshit that has taken an ideological and financial hold on the industry: a dinner date & a movie can take 5 hours in the evening, but any dungeon that's longer than an hour is 'bad design'. Any dungeon crawl that requires a choice or thinking on the part of the player is 'bad design'.

Yeah, fuck you gaming industry. You can shove all these new design paradigms because ALL of them fucking suck and serve no purpose except to extract as much profit as possible from every single customer.

Fuck you right in your ear. Like you even have an ear left after we've been SCREAMING in it for the past decade and Kotick cock has been shoved so far into it. Yes, I still get angry talking about wasted potential.

Probably because EQ didn't give a fuck if you quit or not. And the people trying it (people with good internet in 99, a dedicated graphics card, willing to pay a sub fee which was unheard of at the time) were more willing to invest in the game. EQ had insanely low retention rates, but those it stuck with, well, I mean we're on a forum spinoff from a guild that existed in this game 15 years ago. It says something.

Can't remember the post, but it was about a WoW investor meeting describing player retention and the "first 20 minute" experience. How they had so many people quitting (like 80%) within the first 20 minutes and they wanted to fix that. Just shows you the shift in focus which prevents any kind of player-negative interactions between players or between player and world.

Brahma · Dec 10, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
Ok so you want to play a game where reputation matters. Here are a few things that would have to exist.

1) The content of the game in tuned so that you need multiple people to complete it. I.e. Damage dealers and Damage takers. No tank, no go.
2) For a person without friends going into the game, you need to be on your best behavior or others won't play with you, thus you would be stuck doing nothing.
3) If you come into the game with friends, you are free to treat everyone like shit because your friends will play with you anyway. You're mostly playing with friends in the first place.
4) You get to a point where your gear is better than average it doesn't matter what your personality is like, you're gear is your reputation.

So, I assume you're part of #2 where you want to be able to make friends and be respected for your ability to hit a skill rotation and not die. You love the idea of people asking you to group with them as soon as you log on because you're that awesome. You're that roaming hero of the land that is basking in your own glory.

Problem is, everyone wants that.

Two questions:

So the question I'm posing to you is, how big or how small do the servers/community have to be so that your skill or good deeds don't get drowned out by the multitudes of people playing the game? What is the size of the population before your skilled play breaks through the white noise?

With online play becoming more prevalent and true skill based games (FPS, MOBA etc) how do you separate yourself from the pack in an autoattack/skill rotation/non aiming environment?

1) The content of the game in tuned so that you need multiple people to complete it. I.e. Damage dealers and Damage takers. No tank, no go.
I am a tank. So moot.

2) For a person without friends going into the game, you need to be on your best behavior or others won't play with you, thus you would be stuck doing nothing.
I play a tank. Know how to make friends. Moot.

3) If you come into the game with friends, you are free to treat everyone like shit because your friends will play with you anyway. You're mostly playing with friends in the first place.
I am not a dick. Moot.

4) You get to a point where your gear is better than average it doesn't matter what your personality is like, you're gear is your reputation.
LOL. Only in the WoW was I in the top 1%. Any other MMO (If I have stuck with it like Tera) Passable gear with skill is more important man.

So, I assume you're part of #2 where you want to be able to make friends and be respected for your ability to hit a skill rotation and not die. You love the idea of people asking you to group with them as soon as you log on because you're that awesome. You're that roaming hero of the land that is basking in your own glory.

Problem is, everyone wants that.

Not part of #2. And I usually have gained a great rep for my ability to avoid the fire and mash buttons pretty fast. There IS a reason we are on this board man. We pretty much are those that are the best of the...well we aren't nearly as bad as the masses. We take this shit serious.

Jysin · Dec 10, 2013

Gotta agree with Brahma. I played a Warrior and didnt get picked up for the uber guild until late Velious. I had pretty mediocre gear, but had tells as soon as I logged in for groups and go-to friends lists when I needed groups. I'd say my strength back then was dragging groups through Guk, SolB, Sebilis, etc to whatever camp was needed. Tanks used to pull quite often back then too, so you basically set the entire pace of the group. All I know, it wasnt a guild tag nor uber gear that got me those insta-groups on login.

rhinohelix · Dec 10, 2013

You guys are missing the forest for the trees here. So none of those things apply to you: Fantastic.
1)In games made for populations larger than "you" tons of other people are going to draw the short straws. I.E. kicked so the tank who won't join because his friend the sleepy rogue can also join.

2)Without friends, not only do you have to be on your best social behavior, but the best gameplay behavior as defined by the minmax gamers. Not the right gear? No group. Not the best class? No group. Don't put out enough DPS? No group. Don't want to follow the optimum path through the dungeon? No group. Want to do anything out of "optimum build" for your class? No group.

3) With friends, all of the nominal social controls for poor behavior are removed. Don't think of them as friends; think of them as "douchebag/KS/ninjaloot enablers".

4) the thing about the gear: what he is saying that people who have not great reputations will end up getting groups if they're geared because an asshole you can play with is better than a nice guy that you can't.

Grim1 · Dec 10, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
Ok so you want to play a game where reputation matters. Here are a few things that would have to exist.

1) The content of the game in tuned so that you need multiple people to complete it. I.e. Damage dealers and Damage takers. No tank, no go.
2) For a person without friends going into the game, you need to be on your best behavior or others won't play with you, thus you would be stuck doing nothing.
3) If you come into the game with friends, you are free to treat everyone like shit because your friends will play with you anyway. You're mostly playing with friends in the first place.
4) You get to a point where your gear is better than average it doesn't matter what your personality is like, you're gear is your reputation.

So, I assume you're part of #2 where you want to be able to make friends and be respected for your ability to hit a skill rotation and not die. You love the idea of people asking you to group with them as soon as you log on because you're that awesome. You're that roaming hero of the land that is basking in your own glory.

Problem is, everyone wants that.

Two questions:

So the question I'm posing to you is, how big or how small do the servers/community have to be so that your skill or good deeds don't get drowned out by the multitudes of people playing the game? What is the size of the population before your skilled play breaks through the white noise?

With online play becoming more prevalent and true skill based games (FPS, MOBA etc) how do you separate yourself from the pack in an autoattack/skill rotation/non aiming environment?

Very good summary of the issues involved in reputation. Your barriers to reputation working in a larger community are not as fixed as you think though. It just requires some innovative and proactive thinking on the dev's part to accomplish.

We have over 6 billion people in the world now, and anyone who does something extremely stupid is capable of being embarrassed for the world to see. Youtube, twitter, etc.

The same thing can be done in an mmo. Of course it could also be abused. The other side of calling out people for stupid behavior is bullying people with the same tools.

edit... oops. Over 7 BILLION people on earth now... We breed faster than rabbits.

zzeris · Dec 10, 2013

Rhinohelix_sl said:
You guys are missing the forest for the trees here. So none of those things apply to you: Fantastic.
1)In games made for populations larger than "you" tons of other people are going to draw the short straws. I.E. kicked so the tank who won't join because his friend the sleepy rogue can also join.

2)Without friends, not only do you have to be on your best social behavior, but the best gameplay behavior as defined by the minmax gamers. Not the right gear? No group. Not the best class? No group. Don't put out enough DPS? No group. Don't want to follow the optimum path through the dungeon? No group. Want to do anything out of "optimum build" for your class? No group.

3) With friends, all of the nominal social controls for poor behavior are removed. Don't think of them as friends; think of them as "douchebag/KS/ninjaloot enablers".

4) the thing about the gear: what he is saying that people who have not great reputations will end up getting groups if they're geared because an asshole you can play with is better than a nice guy that you can't.

Whew, I was wondering how many would honestly get what Draegan was saying. Good post. No one at SOE or anywhere else gives a flying shit about one person's vision of a game. Saying that you are a tank and every valid argument is moot (because you're awesome buddy!) doesn't change the fact that this is a MMO and not your single player personal paradise. Once again, even in EQ not everyone played a tank or healer all the time or ever. And these issues were much larger for other classes. And they paid the same money as you! So their opinions are actually...just as valid. And EQ gave a fuck about people quitting. That's the whole reason they changed the game up. Because if it was really succeeding and growing without change...it would have never changed.

Now the conversations about sound, first person, etc are very good and I'd love to see what Mr. Creed is saying. A new variant of EQ based on the immersion, world building, meaningful death and few other things EQ did well.

Tmac · Dec 11, 2013

Heallun_sl said:
Probably because EQ didn't give a fuck if you quit or not.

You tell em'.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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