Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

popsicledeath · Sep 30, 2015

I consider WoW to be the type of theme park that defines the word. The game constantly tells you where the next best attraction is, leading you around, and with a lot of hard-coded restrictions. Sure, EQ wasn't the skilled-based open-world sandbox that may define the term, but the world and it's rules were pretty open. Not compared to UO, but definitely compared to most games since. EQ wasn't built as a theme park, though, imo, at least not initially and not like games are now. It just happened that there were certain places people wanted to go. That doesn't mean you couldn't pretty much go anywhere and try all sorts of shit you weren't 'supposed' to do, and it definitely didn't have the UI loading up the theme-park map highlighting where you not only should go, but where you pretty much had to go if you wanted to progress.

And saying grouping and camping isn't sandbox? I dunno about that. Sandbox is go where you want, do what you want. Every sandbox game ever has vast evidence of people doing what people do, which is band together and often camp shit until it's no longer viable. There's a reason sanboxes are best with diminishing returnds. The different in EQ is they'd let you camp a spot for days if you wanted. How is that not sandbox?

Cinge · Sep 30, 2015

Rogosh_sl said:
This thread being this active has alot to say with how desperate most of us are for a real mmo, one that isnt standard spoonfed quest hubbing instance lobbying in a city.

Well Convo does have 2.2k posts in this thread alone

Btw thanks for the laugh @ "Real" MMO

Boloboy · Sep 30, 2015

If you live in the states and where its legal...Brad should send you a bag of weed with each months subscription...Pantheon will be a huge hit then.

Abefroman · Oct 1, 2015

Rogosh_sl said:
This thread being this active has alot to say with how desperate most of us are for a real mmo, one that isnt standard spoonfed quest hubbing instance lobbying in a city.

That's a nice spin and all but complete bullshit. The reason this thread is so active is because this thread is the actual MMO. It's a comedy text mud and most of us just leveled up on shabadabadu

zzeris · Oct 1, 2015

popsicledeath_sl said:
I consider WoW to be the type of theme park that defines the word. The game constantly tells you where the next best attraction is, leading you around, and with a lot of hard-coded restrictions. Sure, EQ wasn't the skilled-based open-world sandbox that may define the term, but the world and it's rules were pretty open. Not compared to UO, but definitely compared to most games since. EQ wasn't built as a theme park, though, imo, at least not initially and not like games are now. It just happened that there were certain places people wanted to go. That doesn't mean you couldn't pretty much go anywhere and try all sorts of shit you weren't 'supposed' to do, and it definitely didn't have the UI loading up the theme-park map highlighting where you not only should go, but where you pretty much had to go if you wanted to progress.

And saying grouping and camping isn't sandbox? I dunno about that. Sandbox is go where you want, do what you want. Every sandbox game ever has vast evidence of people doing what people do, which is band together and often camp shit until it's no longer viable. There's a reason sanboxes are best with diminishing returnds. The different in EQ is they'd let you camp a spot for days if you wanted. How is that not sandbox?

Very good post and that is exactly what most people would define themepark by. At the same time, these options did exist in WoW and I would argue the returns are much more diminished in WoW. You could level in a variety of ways, your choice. Sure, there was a better route but the same was true for EQ. WoW was built as the improved EQ afterall. Sandbox is go where you want, do what you want. WoW had more options in this front hands down outside of unintended exploits(which i loved) The rules being more open on EQ can't be argued. At the same time, they didn't intend for most of that. Good for us in this instance that Brad was making the game. Unfortunately, the other side of the coin was the constant bugs that plagued EQ. Recurring theme for Brad. Camping the same shit for days doesn't feel very sandboxy to me. That's an option in any game in the genre basically in some form or other. Camping dungeons in WoW is really no different except you aren't the special snowflake that camped there first. Completely different argument there. Item based games have some form of camping in all of them. It's the pain for your gain.

I do much prefer EQ's system of not handholding. I prefer the exploration aspect and the awesome tricks you could use. I loved learning new ways to push my character and explore what I could do. I loved EQ at one point. Nonetheless, some of these posts glorify a very small window of the EQ experience while forgetting all the issues that made WoW its money. People also forget just how good vanilla WoW really was.

etchazz · Oct 1, 2015

popsicledeath_sl said:
I consider WoW to be the type of theme park that defines the word. The game constantly tells you where the next best attraction is, leading you around, and with a lot of hard-coded restrictions. Sure, EQ wasn't the skilled-based open-world sandbox that may define the term, but the world and it's rules were pretty open. Not compared to UO, but definitely compared to most games since. EQ wasn't built as a theme park, though, imo, at least not initially and not like games are now. It just happened that there were certain places people wanted to go. That doesn't mean you couldn't pretty much go anywhere and try all sorts of shit you weren't 'supposed' to do, and it definitely didn't have the UI loading up the theme-park map highlighting where you not only should go, but where you pretty much had to go if you wanted to progress.

And saying grouping and camping isn't sandbox? I dunno about that. Sandbox is go where you want, do what you want. Every sandbox game ever has vast evidence of people doing what people do, which is band together and often camp shit until it's no longer viable. There's a reason sanboxes are best with diminishing returnds. The different in EQ is they'd let you camp a spot for days if you wanted. How is that not sandbox?

I agree. EQ wasn't full on sandbox, but it's a fuck ton more sandbox than just about every game that has come out since. The fact that EQ didn't have hard factions alone makes it more sandbox than most games. And like Popsicle said, you didn't HAVE to go to specific spots in EQ. WoW (and games like it) literally take you from point A to point B and so on, giving you extremely limited options on where to go next. At least in EQ you had several spots for each level group.

Erronius · Oct 1, 2015

Abefroman_sl said:
That's a nice spin and all but complete bullshit. The reason this thread is so active is because this thread is the actual MMO. It's a comedy text mud and most of us just leveled up on shabadabadu

Now that he has quit, some of you guys are going to corpse camp him, LOL

Rogosh_sl said:
This thread being this active has alot to say with how desperate most of us are for a real mmo

'Real MMO' = outdated design that will in all likelihood guarantee that it appeals to few gamers overall.

I have to be honest...I don't even think I want to play an MMO anymore, and I haven't played anything in a while. And like a lot of people on here, I've played a lot of them. I don't have the time to poopsock anymore, and more importantly, I don't WANT to poopsock. The only type of gameplay that would probably appeal to me is similar to what we did in the worst 'game' ever, Esim (and for some, eRep): metagaming and trolling the shit out of people. PvE is boring as shit with only a modicum of skill required, and I'd only want to PvP to ruin someone's day. And even then, most actual MMO PvP is so mind-numbingly terrible that I'd rather sit in a chatroom with Tanoomba for hours on end talking about the Patriarchy.

When I say that this thread will be more enjoyable than Pantheon could ever be, I'm 100% serious. There simply isn't any chance that BradCo will be able to introduce enough new mechanics/systems that the game won't feel like we've already gone through the motions 100 times before and quit after a month or three.

Now, if Pantheon ends up being a game where you can screw other factions/guilds/nations over and troll without much interference, then I might be interested. But another MMO with the same leveling grind, the same 'quest for lewts', camping or raiding or grouping or whatever the fuck else? It'll just be another dress on a pig, only they'll make the dress a different color this time.

Rogosh · Oct 1, 2015

Erronius_sl said:
Now that he has quit, some of you guys are going to corpse camp him, LOL

'Real MMO' = outdated design that will in all likelihood guarantee that it appeals to few gamers overall.

I have to be honest...I don't even think I want to play an MMO anymore, and I haven't played anything in a while. And like a lot of people on here, I've played a lot of them. I don't have the time to poopsock anymore, and more importantly, I don't WANT to poopsock. The only type of gameplay that would probably appeal to me is similar to what we did in the worst 'game' ever, Esim (and for some, eRep): metagaming and trolling the shit out of people. PvE is boring as shit with only a modicum of skill required, and I'd only want to PvP to ruin someone's day. And even then, most actual MMO PvP is so mind-numbingly terrible that I'd rather sit in a chatroom with Tanoomba for hours on end talking about the Patriarchy.

When I say that this thread will be more enjoyable than Pantheon could ever be, I'm 100% serious. There simply isn't any chance that BradCo will be able to introduce enough new mechanics/systems that the game won't feel like we've already gone through the motions 100 times before and quit after a month or three.

Now, if Pantheon ends up being a game where you can screw other factions/guilds/nations over and troll without much interference, then I might be interested. But another MMO with the same leveling grind, the same 'quest for lewts', camping or raiding or grouping or whatever the fuck else? It'll just be another dress on a pig, only they'll make the dress a different color this time.

Yeah you are probably right, it does feel like nostalgia to me when I say a good mmo. Who am I kidding, all mmos really do feel the same currently. It would probably take a virtual world(occulus rift) with death penalty to really make it feel new.

Dullahan · Oct 1, 2015

WoW always had 1 main path of progression for each faction. There was no options. There was a path through zones and dungeons along the way. There was no missing your options, they were laid out in front of you.

In EQ the options were scattered all over the world, like a real world. You could level up in the strangest places. When EQ launched I farmed hundreds of plat off wisps in erud crossing and could basically buy any items I wanted for several month and later, killed cats till probably around 30+. Always wisps though, because lightstones were worth a lot. I was loaded, and thats how I progressed. You couldn't do shit like that in WoW at any point. Not while gaining exp and actually making a lot of money. People actually bought greater lightstones too for light sources. I just loved that island and the music. Felt like I was on a tropical vacation every day I logged in. There and the boat ride back to erudin felt like my little corner of the world. Wasn't the only thing I did, but was there for much of 20 levels.

Some people would think that sounds boring, but it was fun to me and an easy way to play by myself casually when I was busy irl. You can call it nostalgia all you want, but unlike other games, everyone has different stories like that in early EQ. Thats sandbox.

Draegan_sl · Oct 1, 2015

You can do shit like that in archeage.

Khane · Oct 1, 2015

Theres more info on the type of game Pantheon is than any other game in development.

Hahahaha

Big Flex · Oct 1, 2015

Erronius_sl said:
Now that he has quit, some of you guys are going to corpse camp him, LOL

'Real MMO' = outdated design that will in all likelihood guarantee that it appeals to few gamers overall.

I have to be honest...I don't even think I want to play an MMO anymore, and I haven't played anything in a while. And like a lot of people on here, I've played a lot of them. I don't have the time to poopsock anymore, and more importantly, I don't WANT to poopsock. The only type of gameplay that would probably appeal to me is similar to what we did in the worst 'game' ever, Esim (and for some, eRep): metagaming and trolling the shit out of people. PvE is boring as shit with only a modicum of skill required, and I'd only want to PvP to ruin someone's day. And even then, most actual MMO PvP is so mind-numbingly terrible that I'd rather sit in a chatroom with Tanoomba for hours on end talking about the Patriarchy.

When I say that this thread will be more enjoyable than Pantheon could ever be, I'm 100% serious. There simply isn't any chance that BradCo will be able to introduce enough new mechanics/systems that the game won't feel like we've already gone through the motions 100 times before and quit after a month or three.

Now, if Pantheon ends up being a game where you can screw other factions/guilds/nations over and troll without much interference, then I might be interested. But another MMO with the same leveling grind, the same 'quest for lewts', camping or raiding or grouping or whatever the fuck else? It'll just be another dress on a pig, only they'll make the dress a different color this time.

I agree with every word of this post. quality. would read again.

Convo · Oct 1, 2015

Cinge_sl said:
Well Convo does have 2.2k posts in this thread alone

Btw thanks for the laugh @ "Real" MMO

Hey, at least I stick to games that actually interest me

Dullahan · Oct 1, 2015

Draegan_sl said:
You can do shit like that in archeage.

I agree. That's what made ArcheAge fun. The whole world was bustling, people doing different stuff everywhere. Too bad those good things were overshadowed by all the bad thats been discussed ad nauseum.

Mario Speedwagon · Oct 1, 2015

Erronius_sl said:
Now that he has quit, some of you guys are going to corpse camp him, LOL

'Real MMO' = outdated design that will in all likelihood guarantee that it appeals to few gamers overall.

I have to be honest...I don't even think I want to play an MMO anymore, and I haven't played anything in a while. And like a lot of people on here, I've played a lot of them. I don't have the time to poopsock anymore, and more importantly, I don't WANT to poopsock. The only type of gameplay that would probably appeal to me is similar to what we did in the worst 'game' ever, Esim (and for some, eRep): metagaming and trolling the shit out of people. PvE is boring as shit with only a modicum of skill required, and I'd only want to PvP to ruin someone's day. And even then, most actual MMO PvP is so mind-numbingly terrible that I'd rather sit in a chatroom with Tanoomba for hours on end talking about the Patriarchy.

When I say that this thread will be more enjoyable than Pantheon could ever be, I'm 100% serious. There simply isn't any chance that BradCo will be able to introduce enough new mechanics/systems that the game won't feel like we've already gone through the motions 100 times before and quit after a month or three.

Now, if Pantheon ends up being a game where you can screw other factions/guilds/nations over and troll without much interference, then I might be interested. But another MMO with the same leveling grind, the same 'quest for lewts', camping or raiding or grouping or whatever the fuck else? It'll just be another dress on a pig, only they'll make the dress a different color this time.

Do they sell pig dresses on the unity asset store?

Utnayan · Oct 1, 2015

Dullahan_sl said:
WoW always had 1 main path of progression for each faction. There was no options. There was a path through zones and dungeons along the way. There was no missing your options, they were laid out in front of you.

In EQ the options were scattered all over the world, like a real world.

Really? Because while you could travel all over the world, you are completely lying when you say options were scattered all over the world. Zones were level locked. And were also out-levelable. You aren't going to Rathe Mountains to join a group at level 4. You are either killing spiders and snakes in East Commons/Qeynos starting areas, or maybe getting a derv camp in North Ro. You aren't going to Oasis at level 6 to fight level 14 crocs, level 32 specs, or the occasional Sand Giant. You aren't going into the Velious expansion at level 20, and you sure as hell weren't joining a Seb group at level 30.

Come on. Get off it. You are dealing with EQ veterans here. Quit trying to paint the game as an open world play box doing whatever you want anytime you wanted, while mistaking the idea that just because you could run through 13 zones in an attempt to get to the level appropriate area your buddy was in, meant the previous statement. In Vanilla you had the same amount of starting areas that WoW had between it's factions. The same leveling path, the same dungeon paths. The* ONLY * difference was you didn't have your hand held to guide you where to go, and you would go outside the game on a forum to find out instead.

The leveling path itself was identical to WoW. Except you stumbled upon Befallen when killing bears and you weren't automatically led to the dungeon and you didn't need to do it. In WoW, you have the same level locked areas, via quest hopping, and then a guiding path to go through a dungeon of the same appropriate level, which you would run into when playing Everquest in the same level locked zones by seeing a landmark.

Not you specifically, well, actually, you specifically. You trying to paint it as something different is like watching a design meeting at Bioware where for some ridiculous reason they needed to rename Instance to Phase and then try to tell everyone it was different from instancing before 2011 launch.

Khane · Oct 1, 2015

Utnayan_sl said:
Really? Because while you could travel all over the world, you are completely lying when you say options were scattered all over the world. Zones were level locked. And were also out-levelable. You aren't going to Rathe Mountains to join a group at level 4. You are either killing spiders and snakes in East Commons/Qeynos starting areas, or maybe getting a derv camp in North Ro. You aren't going to Oasis at level 6 to fight level 14 crocs, level 32 specs, or the occasional Sand Giant. You aren't going into the Velious expansion at level 20, and you sure as hell weren't joining a Seb group at level 30.

Come on. Get off it. You are dealing with EQ veterans here. Quit trying to paint the game as an open world play box doing whatever you want anytime you wanted, while mistaking the idea that just because you could run through 13 zones in an attempt to get to the level appropriate area your buddy was in, meant the previous statement. In Vanilla you had the same amount of starting areas that WoW had between it's factions. The same leveling path, the same dungeon paths. The* ONLY * difference was you didn't have your hand held to guide you where to go, and you would go outside the game on a forum to find out instead.

The leveling path itself was identical to WoW. Except you stumbled upon Befallen when killing bears and you weren't automatically led to the dungeon and you didn't need to do it. In WoW, you have the same level locked areas, via quest hopping, and then a guiding path to go through a dungeon of the same appropriate level, which you would run into when playing Everquest in the same level locked zones by seeing a landmark.

Not you specifically, well, actually, you specifically. You trying to paint it as something different is like watching a design meeting at Bioware where for some ridiculous reason they needed to rename Instance to Phase and then try to tell everyone it was different from instancing before 2011 launch.

I usually like what you say but I do not agree that EQ and WoW were the same game with a different hat. There was a lot more freedom in EQ. The biggest being you could actually twink a character. Droppable, powerful items that didn't have level requirements, spells you could have high level characters cast on lower level characters, etc. WoW fixed a lot of annoyances with EQ like losing your corpse and excessive downtime but it also handcuffed players in other annoying ways. They also invented the worst fucking thing that ever happened to games. Daily quests. In EQ there was no limit to how often or how fast you could do something.

Kuro · Oct 1, 2015

Some Bards went to Oasis to fight Sand Giants at level 5...

Quaid · Oct 1, 2015

ITT people mistake sandbox gameplay for emergent gameplay.

Fubarbox_sl · Oct 1, 2015

Rogosh_sl said:
Yeah you are probably right, it does feel like nostalgia to me when I say a good mmo. Who am I kidding, all mmos really do feel the same currently. It would probably take a virtual world(occulus rift) with death penalty to really make it feel new.

This. Every game now feels like the same formula to me. I loved Eq1 and I Loved WoW when it first came out. Played both for years. Since then, for me, the genre has just turned into hoping from game to game trying to get that next juicy fix of nostalgia, adventure, the unknown, and community. The problem is that after playing for an hour I sit there and think "What am I doing, this is just a big waste of time." I used to play MMOs all the time and now I have not played one in a couple of years (Destiny does not count). I still love games, but I have realized that you can never catch up to nostalgia. So Screw Nostalgia....Give me a well made Occulus Rift type mmo so I can take my past nostalgia and spit on it while I create a bigger better fix to chase.

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