Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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I heard those comments as well. In fact, they even went so far as to say something along the lines of, if you can figure out how to solo a particular mob, they want to encourage that. Things like pulling, feign death splitting, kiting, etc were all born this way so yeah, it sounds like they not only embrace it but encourage it.
Question for those who watched the videos. Brad obviously did his share of talking and answering questions but there was another guy who did just as much if not moreso of the talking and describing features. In fact, Brad even deferred to him at times. Anyone know who that was? Joppa maybe?
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Reht
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Muligan
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So how far along are they? I watched the last couple of streams but couldn't tell just how much is all tied together? It feels like they have some dungeons and a few areas but at times it looks like an investor presentation prototype and then it looks like they could be in alpha soon.
Siliconemelons
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Stances are fine and all, but should not be as large of a class change as WoW specs are -
Warrior should be best tank in general for groups and raids.
Knights should be best alternative tank, group conditions and specific encounters may make them better than warriors for select things - same with raids.
Both knight and war should be able to do a DPS stance, but not be near a "DPS" class etc. etc.
This goes along all classes and similar etc.
Warrior should be best tank in general for groups and raids.
Knights should be best alternative tank, group conditions and specific encounters may make them better than warriors for select things - same with raids.
Both knight and war should be able to do a DPS stance, but not be near a "DPS" class etc. etc.
This goes along all classes and similar etc.
Totally agree. I like creating flexibility in making groups as long as it doesn't dilute the importance of specific roles either. A warrior, regardless of stance, should always be a better tank than a DPS class (rogue, monk, etc) in a tank stance. I'm good with said rogue, monk, etc tanking in a pinch but not serving as a primary tank. Same with DPS. CC, healing.
In other words, stances will give some flexibility within a class but for the most part, if you want to play a certain role, you need to roll one of those classes.
Because knights should bring a lot more utility to the table than both warriors as well as melee DPS classes do.
Just because a warrior may be the best tank doesn't mean you have to have one to put a group together. There may be certain zones, encounters, etc where you might need a warrior but for the most part, I'm sure rolling with a knight will be more than adequate.
Siliconemelons
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Looking at knights, they played a very nitche role of support in EQ. Playing p99 has shown what exactly destroys knights - agro clickies being known, prevalent and easy to acquire/recharge/ etc. Every good war has slowstones, midnight mallet, snare and root nets etc. ready to blow at all times in raids- this kills knights uses in raids. Knights where used for flurry drakes because wars could not get the needed agro in place before they NEEDED a heal and the cleric would get ate, so knights took the role because they had the best and fastest agro and the ability to survive the fight.
However now with wars just burning a root net or whatever, the knights role is gone, in this specific instance.
However even in p99 knights are still considered the best group tanks, esp nontwink @ level grinding.
p99 is putting off the "velious 2h" patch, that puts knights in the same dmg table as warriors for 2h - if they did that knights will actually be fairly good dmg with a 2h... they also refuse to make lifetaps classic/nigh-unresistable and that is seriously hurting SKs and Necros- SKs on live where essentially free dmg, not great dmg, but not bad - and they could tap through 90% of the dragons and didn't need heals etc. like rogs/monks etc... but with that not there, they become a burden on the raid while really giving not much DPS...
Knights are a very, very finely balanced class - looking back EQ did a nice job at it... I played a SK throughout 1999 till I quit after guild died after GoD/OOW era. While a "nice job" at balance is not perfect... the problem is in D&D etc. knights as a dual class SHOULD be more powerful than almost any, as in EQ hybrids were the only dual class, Bard, Ranger, Pal and SK - at end game they SHOULD be more powerful than any other - and they SHOULD be hardest to GET THERE.
The time that hybrids, became the best was when they started to focus on them as individual classes, not just 30% Alt class (Cleric/Druid/Necro) and 70% primary class (War/Rog) - this started around Luclin mostly, some started in vel - but mostly SoL and solidified in POP. This also was done to stave off the sharp increase into insane levels that would have happened with the SK if they followed the Necro path even at 30% it would have been insane hehe.
Bards always were a well balanced hybrid because they didn't just split their classes (shaman/rog) they started them with the idea of a dual class, but made them their own from the beginning. That's why many still don't consider bards a part of the hybrids- but I still do.
However now with wars just burning a root net or whatever, the knights role is gone, in this specific instance.
However even in p99 knights are still considered the best group tanks, esp nontwink @ level grinding.
p99 is putting off the "velious 2h" patch, that puts knights in the same dmg table as warriors for 2h - if they did that knights will actually be fairly good dmg with a 2h... they also refuse to make lifetaps classic/nigh-unresistable and that is seriously hurting SKs and Necros- SKs on live where essentially free dmg, not great dmg, but not bad - and they could tap through 90% of the dragons and didn't need heals etc. like rogs/monks etc... but with that not there, they become a burden on the raid while really giving not much DPS...
Knights are a very, very finely balanced class - looking back EQ did a nice job at it... I played a SK throughout 1999 till I quit after guild died after GoD/OOW era. While a "nice job" at balance is not perfect... the problem is in D&D etc. knights as a dual class SHOULD be more powerful than almost any, as in EQ hybrids were the only dual class, Bard, Ranger, Pal and SK - at end game they SHOULD be more powerful than any other - and they SHOULD be hardest to GET THERE.
The time that hybrids, became the best was when they started to focus on them as individual classes, not just 30% Alt class (Cleric/Druid/Necro) and 70% primary class (War/Rog) - this started around Luclin mostly, some started in vel - but mostly SoL and solidified in POP. This also was done to stave off the sharp increase into insane levels that would have happened with the SK if they followed the Necro path even at 30% it would have been insane hehe.
Bards always were a well balanced hybrid because they didn't just split their classes (shaman/rog) they started them with the idea of a dual class, but made them their own from the beginning. That's why many still don't consider bards a part of the hybrids- but I still do.
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Big_w_powah
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FTFY
Also, bards were never appropriately balanced. There we graphs and charts made to prove it.
Aftathott go!!
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Ichu
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That's what they have. They are still trying to drum up cash so it only makes sense that they dedicate the vast majority of the team's time into what is being presented.
As far as guessing where they are off the table, the high concept lore looks to be figured out. Otherwise they seem to have no plan, which is really going to hurt them if they don't get it together. There are some super fundamental things that will dictate the success of the game that they didn't even sound like they had discussed as a team on the stream. Each person just chimed in with what they thought it should be when it came up.
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The tank thing, it depends exactly how they make the tank and knight classes different. In EQ the warrior was only the 'best' tank because of Evasive Stance. A pally or sk was actually a much better tank in 99% of the content in classic EQ, but when you go to that top 1% of content like tanking Cazic Thule or stuff in Veeshans Peak, only the Warrior could actually survive tanking that stuff, and it was only because of Evasive. A knight could even have higher ac and hp but would get almost 1 shotted by even the trash mobs in places like that because of the damage spikes.
I think that is a bad way of doing things because when one becomes a clear winner, then you have the holy trinity problem all over again. And it spills over into groups, because the average moron wouldn't go and do some easy dungeon with an SK or Pally because they heard Warriors are best and they would rather wait to get a War. Sometime around PoP I remember trying to get in pickup groups (I was a necro at the time), and there were a rising number of people who refused to go to a dungeon without a warrior, cleric, enchanter (the holy trinity), but also a druid or wiz for evac. So there were only 2 spots that weren't fixed in a group. It was idiotic, it killed grouping, and it also didn't make sense because when that wizzy or druid died before they could evac, or they evacced but left someone behind... then it was me they called upon to go and summon their corpses..
Basically, people are morons and the game shouldn't give them any ammunition to ruin things like that. But Vanguard (which is basically the REAL EQ2), showed how classes should be done. They killed the holy trinity dead in that game because each class fitted into their archetype really well, and everyone had key archetype abilities as good as anyone else, even though they played in a really varied way too. For example Clerics were good healers and it was nice having traditional heals that you can just click and it does a big heal or group heal, but a Blood Mage or Disciple were just as good if not better. BM had the best damage I think, Disc probably the best sustainability because they could keep people healed forever without worrying about mana. Tanks were pretty well designed too, avoiding one clear winner. They kinda dropped the ball with the Psi though.
I think that is a bad way of doing things because when one becomes a clear winner, then you have the holy trinity problem all over again. And it spills over into groups, because the average moron wouldn't go and do some easy dungeon with an SK or Pally because they heard Warriors are best and they would rather wait to get a War. Sometime around PoP I remember trying to get in pickup groups (I was a necro at the time), and there were a rising number of people who refused to go to a dungeon without a warrior, cleric, enchanter (the holy trinity), but also a druid or wiz for evac. So there were only 2 spots that weren't fixed in a group. It was idiotic, it killed grouping, and it also didn't make sense because when that wizzy or druid died before they could evac, or they evacced but left someone behind... then it was me they called upon to go and summon their corpses..
Basically, people are morons and the game shouldn't give them any ammunition to ruin things like that. But Vanguard (which is basically the REAL EQ2), showed how classes should be done. They killed the holy trinity dead in that game because each class fitted into their archetype really well, and everyone had key archetype abilities as good as anyone else, even though they played in a really varied way too. For example Clerics were good healers and it was nice having traditional heals that you can just click and it does a big heal or group heal, but a Blood Mage or Disciple were just as good if not better. BM had the best damage I think, Disc probably the best sustainability because they could keep people healed forever without worrying about mana. Tanks were pretty well designed too, avoiding one clear winner. They kinda dropped the ball with the Psi though.
Yeah this is what emergent gameplay is all about, and it is why EQ was so cool. They made that for groups too but people figured things out by themselves like FD pulling and fear kiting etc. Most classes ended up being able to solo, but some really struggled and some did well with it. But even as a Necro, nothing beat having a good group. That's how it should be.
The first stream was barely 6 months ago and showed little more than a starting area and basic mechanics/systems. Most were pleasantly surprised with what they had put together for that demo, especially given the original Kickstarter fiasco. The prevailing thought is that Unity has a lot to do with this as it allows them to spend more time on feature design and world building and less on engine design/optimization (or lack thereof) like they had to with Vanguard.
This latest stream was arguably the most telling one to date though due to the timeline between that first stream and this last one. They've clearly added/tweaked quite a bit in these last 5-6 months, which demonstrates a pretty decent design rate for a team that small. If Unity is powerful enough that zones like that ice dungeon in this last stream (VERY well done IMO) can be designed in say, a month's worth of work or so, then I don't think it's totally unrealistic to think they could launch by 1Q18. I mean the tech is there. The real obstacle is getting the funding.
Seems like the complete opposite of Vanguard where the money was there, but the tech wasn't.
Reht
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To be fair, while the first streams were within the last 6 to 8 months, they had been releasing video updates (no longer available on youtube) over the last 2 years which pretty much demo'd a lot of the same stuff shown in the first twitch and some in the second, the streams showed more polish. The third stream with the few new zones, new PC models and a couple new mechanics really finally showed some real work.
Itlan
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Siliconemelons
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It depends on what you call balanced, groups and raids love bards - yeah I suppose they are more enchanter than shaman - beastlords where really the shaman/rog/war mix.
Bards always provided a benefit to the group, stacking mana and regen songs with standard buffs, dots that stacked with all other class dots, ability to mez and charm - and do so quite effectively if that's all they were going to do. Most of the stacking things were because bards were their own thing - if a SK is grouped with a Necro- even if they wanted to dot stuff, stacking overlaps make it null, etc. etc.
Did bards, going full out DPS (songs + weapons) ever match Rogs or Monks? Nope, but to me - they never should have. Like knights their value was more of an intangible thing - although you would think mana song alone is worth having a bard around, and resist song, and this and that - so imo its greedy for bards to be like "QQ we r suppose ta be rogs! why dun we do dat dmg!"
The prevalence of agro clickies in p99 and I am sure everything else- really goes to show you that "agro" was a big mechanic in the balance of wars and knights - destroying that mechanic kicks knights right in the sack.
Live: MT dies, a knight provides a vital role in being the buffer tank - a buffer tank that needs heals (so patches spam, some of chain needs to roll them also) until the warrior is able to build up sufficient agro and by then the knight dies (IN A MOST HONRABLE WAY! lol) and the warrior by then should be next on list and have the chain already rolling on them.
p99: MT dies, monk/rog/ranger does their avoidance disc and spams super clicks, chain swaps to next tank, once heals start landing on tank he spams his agro- and live moves on.
As you can see, one is much easier than the other- while both are gameplay, I am mostly referencing how to effected knights.
Eh... 1Q18 sounds unrealistically optimistic. They're hedging on even guaranteeing pre-alpha access by 2Q17. Say pre-alpha access does start 2Q17 - you'd think it'd take at least a year to go from there to release, maybe more?
I'm looking back at Vanguard (maybe a bad example since as was mentioned they had to do all the engine work and optimizations with that game)- I got my Vanguard "beta" invite October 18, 2005, the game released January 2007 (and way too early at that). Granted, the state of Vanguard at the point I joined "beta" seemed more like a pre-pre-Alpha than Pantheon seems to be in right now, but it sounds like they have way too much to work on yet to really expect a 1Q18 release.
On a related note, it was cool to see random groups as they moved around in this "pre-pre-alpha" build. Probably just for show for the stream? Still cool to see its somewhat playable.
They probably have some family and friends testing their game. Old SOE people, close friends, old work colleagues, etc.
One thing I think they should do is release some of these assets and let people make some dungeons. Release concept art for a dungeon, put the assets out, and let some people build the dungeon. It might be crazy, and it seemed like SOE was trying this before they got rekt, but I think it could work in some instances. Weaponize that autism.