Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

popsicledeath · Jan 6, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
There will absolutely be a /con system -- I'm just saying, at the moment, that we're not planning on a 'dot' system like Vanguard. Vanguard was focused on being able to solo and group effectively. Pantheon is even more group focussed.

I just hope it's a starting point in a player's decision to engage a mob, not practically providing a conclusion on whether you should engage. I swear it's gotten to the point games should just tell you your odds of winning and you can press a button and simulate your victory.

See also: playing FF:ARR to level 15 without reading a single line of quest test and without hesitating to engage and beat every single mob the game was telling me engage with any number of UI indicators.

I just want minimal instances of the game telling me what to think and do. Give me a hint. Let my character have enough intelligence to interpret basic aspects of the world. But from there, let me make the decisions and take the risks, even if it means I get killed and realize I'll have to come back later or find some friends.

tad10 · Jan 6, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
You know what would be killer if we could keep it all organized: a list of features you guys want to see, and, just as importantly, stuff you don't want to see. I realize that not everyone is completely on the same page, but we could still maintain a list and just note where people disagree and list the different paths people with differing opinions want us to go.

Any ideas on how we could do this? On this site? Or maybe use google docs? What do you guys think? Too crazy to keep it updated with so many people interested in Pantheon, or maybe something we can try and give it a shot?

Nah. Just make your game. You can't please everybody, so you got to please yourself.

It's not that we're not on the same page, we're not reading the same book there are differences at the "Level" vs "No-Levels/Skill based" and "Instancing" vs. "Non-instancing" design level.

popsicledeath · Jan 6, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
You know what would be killer if we could keep it all organized: a list of features you guys want to see, and, just as importantly, stuff you don't want to see. I realize that not everyone is completely on the same page, but we could still maintain a list and just note where people disagree and list the different paths people with differing opinions want us to go.

Any ideas on how we could do this? On this site? Or maybe use google docs? What do you guys think? Too crazy to keep it updated with so many people interested in Pantheon, or maybe something we can try and give it a shot?

How about on a Pantheon website you have a developer roundtable, ask poll questions, discuss the results and game features, and then actually have it matter and not be a huge crock of shit like with EQNext?

Brings people to the website, gets them involved, lets them hear from devs, AND lets everyone know you care about feedback and don't treat it like a huge crock of shit like with EQNext?

Aradune_sl · Jan 6, 2014

Hachima_sl said:
So much fun in EQ1 came from broken mechanics though. Sand Giant stuck on the dock in OOT for a nice surprise to visitors? Fear a pet and zone and watch players die? No such thing as leashing for the big trains? Ok, this may be more legit but casting knockback spells on players in the karana tree on a pvp server and watching players fall to their death.

Lots of that sort of thing is 'player emergent behavior'. Sometimes it turns into something good for the game and we try to support it, while other times it really boils down to an exploit that we have to address. Overall we're very much in favor of emergent behavior. You guys will undoubtedly find new approaches to taking down a boss mob or something like that. And that's *usually* a good thing and certainly something we will pay close attention to.

popsicledeath · Jan 6, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
I understand what your trying to say, and on the surface it makes sense. But the downside of that is having to think about every single name of every single mob you create rather then just using a name generator. Or, just fighting blindly and when you die, start over. Your idea is a bit extreme.

Not sure if serious.

Hachima · Jan 6, 2014

I really like the idea of new spells/abilities being earned and not just something you get for free. Going off the idea that people want to be special snowflakes with unique gear looks, particle affects on some of the harder to get spells/abilities that stand out as people watch you fight. Epic type quests (wiz mana burn was like this?) or special raid drops etc.

Aradune_sl · Jan 6, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
How about on a Pantheon website you have a developer roundtable, ask poll questions, discuss the results and game features, and then actually have it matter and not be a huge crock of shit like with EQNext?

Brings people to the website, gets them involved, lets them hear from devs, AND lets everyone know you care about feedback and don't treat it like a huge crock of shit like with EQNext?

Sounds good and definitely something we'll try. I would just mention that for the duration of the KS campaign we will be primarily focused on bringing people to the KS site. Once the time is up, then we'll focus on driving people to our own site, where we will have message boards and where we can try what you're talking about.

Merlin_sl · Jan 6, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
Not sure if serious.

Doesn't matter. Brad already answered the question.

Aradune_sl · Jan 6, 2014

Hachima_sl said:
I really like the idea of new spells/abilities being earned and not just something you get for free. Going off the idea that people want to be special snowflakes with unique gear looks, particle affects on some of the harder to get spells/abilities that stand out as people watch you fight. Epic type quests (wiz mana burn was like this?) or special raid drops etc.

Absolutely. I think the idea that you have to go out there and find and earn your abilities, spells, etc. is one of the key mechanics that will set Pantheon apart. Keep in mind that your regular spells and abilities will not be too hard to acquire; rather, it's the exotic stuff that you'll find in the depths of dungeons. Abilities that will set you apart from others of the same class, allowing you to do things your teammates can't... you'll be more flexible and adaptable. It's really sort of like sub-classing. You may be a cleric whose role is primarily to heal people. But what if you want to be more of a battle cleric, able to both heal and do some damage? That's where these rare abilities/spells come in. Ah, there's so much to talk about here -- let's revisit this in detail after the KS site launches!

tad10 · Jan 6, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
Absolutely. I think the idea that you have to go out there and find and earn your abilities, spells, etc. is one of the key mechanics that will set Pantheon apart. Keep in mind that your regular spells and abilities will not be too hard to acquire; rather, it's the exotic stuff that you'll find in the depths of dungeons. Abilities that will set you apart from others of the same class, allowing you to do things your teammates can't... you'll be more flexible and adaptable. It's really sort of like sub-classing. You may be a cleric whose role is primarily to heal people. But what if you want to be more of a battle cleric, able to both heal and do some damage? That's where these rare abilities/spells come in. Ah, there's so much to talk about here -- let's revisit this in detail after the KS site launches!

All I want from the KS is the baseline of the game:
-Is it level based or something else.
-AA's or something else
-Will combat have ot/dt or something else.
-Instanced or non-instanced content.
-Expected leveling curve.
-Solo content % v. Group content %.

gogojira_sl · Jan 6, 2014

Here's to hoping that that freedom is still limited by a true class choice in the beginning. The Rift soul swapping stuff is just too much and I'm really hesitant to buy into EQN's multiclassing, be the wizadruidcromancer.

Also, and maybe this dates back to me being a softy PVE guy, but I really hope Pantheon mixes in some awesome places to visit, too. Challenge is great and I'm not implying anything about progression in the game, but places like Rivervale were a nice contrast.

Lithose · Jan 6, 2014

I think on swaps, if you want a lot of swapping, handle it like EQN where it's essentially an MMO version of Pokemon or MOBA, the point of the game is to actively build your "champions" (In this case classes) and use horizontal power to defeat mobs. If it's going to be focused on vertical advancement, hopefully it will just be augmentations--which is what it sounds like. I like the idea of essentially "some" slots of your character being like specialized item slots, where specific spells or abilities you get augment your character to do a more specialized role, at a deeper level than items could. As long as it's kept under control.

BilboFaggins · Jan 6, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
You know what would be killer if we could keep it all organized: a list of features you guys want to see, and, just as importantly, stuff you don't want to see. I realize that not everyone is completely on the same page, but we could still maintain a list and just note where people disagree and list the different paths people with differing opinions want us to go.

Any ideas on how we could do this? On this site? Or maybe use google docs? What do you guys think? Too crazy to keep it updated with so many people interested in Pantheon, or maybe something we can try and give it a shot?

What we need is a generalized design document that we can keep adding to and voting on features. I thought about this before. It would be similar to a wiki in that you have top levels of like dungeons, mobs, classes, etc. As you drill down in, you get to more and more specific detail.

Here's the one thing though. This can NOT be open to the public to vote on. The fact is, the mass majority of MMO gamers don't want a niche old school MMORPG, and if you give them the opportunity to vote on design features, you will end up with a WoW clone yet again.

popsicledeath · Jan 6, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
Doesn't matter. Brad already answered the question.

That they'll have a 'con' feature and mobs will be randomly generated so you don't have to 'start over' when you die?

It's really not that bad. I don't want to turn it into a 'what games have you played' discussion, but in EQ or similar games you're a noob, go outside noob town, and there's noob mobs to kill like rats. Oh shit, there's a skeleton, I bet he's meaner than a rat. OUCH, yep! Next time I'll avoid, level up, or bring a friend. It's all about context, and not a huge shift, just players providing input instead of the game providing it all. Like the difference in a story between the author writing 'he was a mean guy' and just having the guy kick a puppy where we'll be like 'damn, he's a mean guy' without it being explicit stated for us. I guess I'm just sick of games stating everything for me when it's stuff I can usually figure out, which is more interesting.

Alkorin · Jan 6, 2014

Itlan_sl said:
You sound like a homo who never got good gear and cried that it was your gear, not you who sucked.

^ This is the kind of attitude that I want to see vanish from modern MMOs. Unfortunately, it's also the prevalent way of thinking among self-aggrandizing children.

Just so you're aware, no, my gear never sucked, and I've never experienced gear score or item levels barring my way into any group. I think the numbers game is moronic, because it's a mostly meaningless way of gauging the amount of luck you've had with loot. Some of it is meaningful in terms of direct correlation to your dps or survivability, but mostly, it's a dumbed down system for simple people to attach one number to your worth.

Aradune_sl · Jan 6, 2014

gogojira_sl said:
Here's to hoping that that freedom is still limited by a true class choice in the beginning. The Rift soul swapping stuff is just too much and I'm really hesitant to buy into EQN's multiclassing, be the wizadruidcromancer.

Also, and maybe this dates back to me being a softy PVE guy, but I really hope Pantheon mixes in some awesome places to visit, too. Challenge is great and I'm not implying anything about progression in the game, but places like Rivervale were a nice contrast.

Agreed. If you're a cleric, you're a cleric. The finding of exotic abilities and spells is going to be a lot of fun. But it's still subject to a solid class based game. It allows you to customize your abilities to some degree (a meaningful degree) but it's not true multi-classing. You're a cleric who has some cool spells that many other clerics may not have. But you're still primarily a cleric and have a role to play. I'm just throwing out numbers right now, but it will be something like you're 90% cleric and then 10% something a bit different because of some crazy rare abilities or spells you've acquired by taking some risks in the depth of a dungeon.

Let me know if that makes sense.

popsicledeath · Jan 6, 2014

tad10_sl said:
-Will combat have ot/dt or something else.

Cmon, tad, don't fail me know! We both want to know if combat will have ot/dt or else we'll riot because it's the only right way to do combat!

Hachima · Jan 6, 2014

Aradune_sl said:
Absolutely. I think the idea that you have to go out there and find and earn your abilities, spells, etc. is one of the key mechanics that will set Pantheon apart. Keep in mind that your regular spells and abilities will not be too hard to acquire; rather, it's the exotic stuff that you'll find in the depths of dungeons. Abilities that will set you apart from others of the same class, allowing you to do things your teammates can't... you'll be more flexible and adaptable. It's really sort of like sub-classing. You may be a cleric whose role is primarily to heal people. But what if you want to be more of a battle cleric, able to both heal and do some damage? That's where these rare abilities/spells come in. Ah, there's so much to talk about here -- let's revisit this in detail after the KS site launches!

That's great to hear

I think a system like that gives players more of a feeling of ownership over the long term progression their character has made, especially when it requires the help from either a group or raid.

Aradune_sl · Jan 6, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
That they'll have a 'con' feature and mobs will be randomly generated so you don't have to 'start over' when you die?

It's really not that bad. I don't want to turn it into a 'what games have you played' discussion, but in EQ or similar games you're a noob, go outside noob town, and there's noob mobs to kill like rats. Oh shit, there's a skeleton, I bet he's meaner than a rat. OUCH, yep! Next time I'll avoid, level up, or bring a friend. It's all about context, and not a huge shift, just players providing input instead of the game providing it all. Like the difference in a story between the author writing 'he was a mean guy' and just having the guy kick a puppy where we'll be like 'damn, he's a mean guy' without it being explicit stated for us. I guess I'm just sick of games stating everything for me when it's stuff I can usually figure out, which is more interesting.

Well said

tad10 · Jan 6, 2014

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:
Here's the one thing though. This can NOT be open to the public to vote on. The fact is, the mass majority of MMO gamers don't want a niche old school MMORPG, and if you give them the opportunity to vote on design features, you will end up with a WoW clone yet again.

Spot on.

If you allow voting you'll get an Edsel.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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