Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

etchazz_sl said:

you're not alone. as much as i want this game to succeed, i'm still on the fence about giving money. as gamers, we support the industry by purchasing finished products. it shouldn't be our job to foot the bill to create the game. i wouldn't give a car company money for a car that wasn't built, nor would i pay $300 for a dinner before it was served.

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See, I disagree here. I'd rather help fund a company that will make the product I want rather than making Brad petition large investors who only care about the bottom line."How many copies can you sell and how much money will I make for my investment"?This is entirely the problem with the current generation of MMO's. Ever since Blizzard made enough money to fill 59 dump trucks, every investor under the sun assumed that was the new standard. Twelve million subs, a billion dollars a month (or whatever ridiculous amount they were making) and every MMO from then on out was judged by that standard. Want tougher leveling? Well what is WOW doing? Want limited top end gear? Well what is WOW doing? Want no shinys and little golden trails leading to the next mob or quest? Well what is WOW doing? That's why you take some guy who wants to invest in a project and most don't have a fucking clue about gaming or gamers and they will simply have some lacky research the industry, find WOW, and make an exact duplicate of WOW because that's how he assumes he is going to get the most amount of money for his investment.

So when you make a statement like, "it shouldn't be our job to foot the bill to create the game", your basically saying that Brad should go beg an investor (Which at some point he will have to secure alternate funding anyway) who is going to tell him that for his investment he retains the right to oversee all decisions and what do you think is going to happen when Brad tells him he intends to make a game which will be the polar opposite of the industry leading WOW? The clueless fuck will remind Brad that section 2.9 of the contract states that he has final say in all decisions regarding the game, and as the primary investor he wants people to hit level 80 in less then a week. Then we are right back where we started. With another fucking WOW clone that no one will play.
You have a right not to invest in the game. Cool. But think outside the box for a second. Whats a $45 investment? Is that really to much to ask? Your on these forums which leads me to believe you know something about gaming and MMO's. Just surprises me you don't see the potential in what they are trying to accomplish here.

Aradune_sl said:

I mentioned this earlier, but it bears repeating: All of us are working pro bono. None of us has the money to self-fund. If I did, I'd be doing it, believe me.

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i respect this. and i understand that none of you have bill gates money to self fund. however, in almost all cases in the business world, if you're starting a brand new company, you would seek out a business loan and raise the capital that way. i don't see how you couldn't get a loan of one million dollars or so given your history in the industry.

Merlin_sl said:

See, I disagree here. I'd rather help fund a company that will make the product I want rather than making Brad petition large investors who only care about the bottom line..

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yeah. and this kindof brings up one thing I wanted to say to the dev team.
"Don't listen to us."

Look at this thread. This is the problem with even a niche, and targeted game. Old school, hardcore gamers here... and we sure as hell do not have a consensus of what we want in a game. Trying to cater to all of us, is no different then trying to cater to the mass market.
Make the game you want to make, hope that game finds an audience.

Brad, will there be a /follow and /assist command in the game?

Hateyou_sl said:

That is a very well done Kickstarter IMO. I may back that one. Edit: Not just because the kickstarter is well done, because the game sounds interesting

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I think this is just a great example of the power of hype. No one seems to realize it's a phone game developed by mobile game devs, they are just throwing money at it. The next Shadowrun but probably even more limited

bayr_sl said:

I think this is just a great example of the power of hype. No one seems to realize it's a phone game developed by mobile game devs, they are just throwing money at it. The next Shadowrun but probably even more limited

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You're right! I know nothing about this game, but the presentation held my interest.

I don't think presentation is an issue. It just seems we are not reaching our fanbase. Not enough people who are interested in this type of game even know about kickstarter or this game. I'll be surprised if we are able to get this funded. It just doesn't seem to be taking off like I had hoped.

etchazz_sl said:

i respect this. and i understand that none of you have bill gates money to self fund. however, in almost all cases in the business world, if you're starting a brand new company, you would seek out a business loan and raise the capital that way. i don't see how you couldn't get a loan of one million dollars or so given your history in the industry.

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My thoughts exactly. While i can see the use of kickstarter for small indie devs working at night in their basement creating a niche game, i dont get the use of said tactics for a group of people declaring themselves a company and basically working off charity. I mean fuck, theyre small businesses in my area that get funded like nuts by the gov and they wont be spewing 500k to a million a year when their business is on the road. Theyre must be some financing hazzard i dont understand with game development cause theres no way a crew like them didnt try to get said loan. And correct me if am wrong but if you want a solid game with alot of cummunity support, which people expect nowdays, you need investors. Regardless of the ''theyll rip the soul out of your game'' general opinion, with no money, you wont have a game. How old was EQ again when sony grabbed it? Was it velious era?

Gecko_sl said:

Draegan, we might need a Pantheon sub forum.This thread moves way too fast and there's too much going on for just it alone. Maybe let a Pantheon person mod it?

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No.

Caliane_sl said:

you are not even buying one.

That is the danger with kickstarter.
its a donation.
its a pre-order.
its an investment.

and any time the morality or legality or oversight of any particular one is called into question, just play a shell game of swapping around which it really is.

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It really is not an investment. It also is hard to justify as a preorder in the case of games that are 3+ years out.

I consider it a donation. The part that bothers me is that guys like Garriot, Jacobs, and perhaps even Mcquaid by and large are wealthy, or at least far, far richer than the average basement dweller here.

If it were an investment and I could pay for a piece of the pie, that'd be far different and worthwhile. It baffles me why people give hundreds of dollars to people they really don't know based mostly on nostalgia for a game they liked 15 years ago, with no actual return on investment, for a product they'll end up spending more of their own money on anyways. This is my biggest gripe with kickstarter, in that it's closer to a pyramid scheme than any form of investing.

Gecko_sl said:

Make a thread for the 50 different topics and things being addressed here? We had a subforum for FFXIV which never had the level of interest as this.

Plus there is actual developer feedback, so it seems appropriate, and might add a lot more to rerolled then just trying to keep up with the 900 posts a day in a single thread that's tough to follow.

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FFXIV was a game that launched where many board members were in the same guild. I will make a subforum for any launched game with a decent sized forum guild.

Gecko_sl said:

It really is not an investment. It also is hard to justify as a preorder in the case of games that are 3+ years out.

I consider it a donation. The part that bothers me is that guys like Garriot, Jacobs, and perhaps even Mcquaid by and large are wealthy, or at least far, far richer than the average basement dweller here.

If it were an investment and I could pay for a piece of the pie, that'd be far different and worthwhile. It baffles me why people give hundreds of dollars to people they really don't know based mostly on nostalgia for a game they liked 15 years ago, with no actual return on investment, for a product they'll end up spending more of their own money on anyways. This is my biggest gripe with kickstarter, in that it's closer to a pyramid scheme than any form of investing.

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You don't really think that $800k is going to build an MMO? That won't even cover salarys. Its just a "kickstart".

Draegan_sl said:

FFXIV was a game that launched where many board members were in the same guild. I will make a subforum for any launched game with a decent sized forum guild.

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I was thinking more of a place for interaction with the devs, stickies for the game, and also to break up this monster thread. This game is sort of unique in that we do have Brad and the other people here, which would make a subforum busier than the entire MMO forum here, I bet. How many posts does this thread average a day? What percentage of MMORPG forum traffic hits here?

Soygen_sl said:

Sony always owned EQ. It was originally published under 989 Studios / Verant, which was owned by Sony.

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Qeynos, Sony EQ. Qeynos, Sony EQ.

Alright, which one of you pledged $55? haha