Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Kirun

Kirun

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mkopec_sl said:
Yeah but it only took them 12 yrs to finally get it.
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It's a shining example of what happens when consumers start using their wallets to fight back. Companies have to adapt or die. Hopefully, Sony turns it around and keeps it up.

Merlin_sl said:
Then your an idiot? Seriously. Who EVER zoned into KC and was shocked to see a train to zone?
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Who said anything about a train to zone? If the train was already there, you would end up dying while loading in.


Merlin_sl said:
So you want to remove death from the game because its inconvenient?
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Where did I say I wanted to remove death from the game?

Merlin_sl said:
Who looks for a 96 rez when your playing in a low level zone like Unrest?
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You completely missed the point(no surprise). The point was, the time lost by a result of something that was completely out of your control, and the hoops you had to jump through to offset that time lost by as much as possible.

Merlin_sl said:
Are you seriously constructing an entire argument over the fact you got killed zoning in to Unrest and that proves the game is tedious? If your not prepared to die hundreds of times over the course of a year then maybe MMO's in general are not for you. Neither are FPS's.
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Yet again, you completely missed the point. If I die in an FPS, nothing is really "lost". It's part of the process of the genre. It's expected to happen over and over. You can make the argument that dying is also part of the process in an MMO(which it is, just notnearlyto the same extent as an FPS). You can stretch that argument even further and say that dying should include a huge time loss component, including loss of exp, running back to your corpse, etc. There's nothing about that scenario which inherently makes the game "difficult", however. It's tacking on arbitrary tedium and hiding it under the guise of "difficulty".

I absolutely agree that there should be consequences to poor play. You can even twist that and say it should be a consequence of poor "strategic planning". I'm showing you an example of where it becomes tedium for tedium's sake, due to forces entirely out of your control. If there's no way for you to control the consequences, that isn't difficulty, that's tedium.

Mkopec_sl said:
We all get that WoWs encounters were difficult, at least I do. But that general feeling of accomplishment/fear/oh shit moments were just not there. Because you never lost anything (time).
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No, they weren't there foryou. Plenty of people got that same thrill/joy out of beating a raid encounter in WoW. Just because you're a masochist and feel that you should have to constantly get your nuts stomped on randomly, every step of the way, before you can feel a sense of accomplishment, doesn't mean others do. It doesn't cheapen or lessen their enjoyment or sense of accomplishment at all.

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Valderen_sl said:
Whenever I hear about how difficult EQ was, I kinda roll my eyes a bit.

I mean, it was a challenge...but a very large part of that challenge was due to bugs and poor coding(or limits of the times).

What was really hard about doing dungeons, or Fear/Hate?

Bad pathing, mobs not clearing their aggro list properly and comming back 10 minutes later with the entire zone in tow. AOE spells going through walls/floor/ceiling(Hello Hate 2nd floor inc...).
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Heck in the early days, the biggest obstacle of doing raids like Vox and Nagafen was people going LD during the fight.
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For the most though, these things are no longer a problem today...pathing AI is better, aggro list clear properly and we generally don't aggro stuff through walls anymore. And going LD is a rare occurance unless someone has an insanely bad connection.

So basically, bugs were fixed and because of it...games became easier.

In a way, WoW wasn't made easier...it was just less buggy.
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So much this. Alotof the "difficulties" present in EQ, were simply the result of technical limitations/bugs(I already touched on this a little). It's going to be nearly impossible for devs to try and "recreate" that experience, because of the reasons mentioned.
 
BoozeCube

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Who gives a shit about which was more difficult, WoW has DDO heroics, and EQ had buggy gameplay and mass group coordination. They were both fun games and both were worth being played in their prime. Arguing semantics about which was better is subjective as hell, which makes it pointless to discuss.

The issue people have is EQ is old as balls and very few wanna go backwards through 92 expansions whatever number of levels and 100,000 AA's just to play it again, and WoW has transformed from an MMORPG into a fucking Xbox lobby of a game. Everyone is looking for a new MMORPG, with an actual persistent world that's fun with a solid risk/reward for playing it. Doesn't matter if it's EQ:Next or Pantheon: Rise of the Forums, or an unnamed challenger. Whoever can produce gets our money as the prize.
 
Arden

Arden

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Kirun_sl said:
First you say this...



Then you say this...



Do you know what the word subjective means?



So, difficulty isn't really subjective then. By your own admission, if something takes a long time, it automatically makes it difficult. In that case, Anarchy Online is probably the most difficult MMORPG to have ever existed in the West.
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You've managed to miss the point of my argument entirely. Here it is distilled:

1. "Difficulty" is subjective, largely because the definition of difficulty is varied/subjective.

2.IFyou subscribe to the way I defined "difficulty" for mmos, then, yes, I believe most reasonable people would find EQ meets the definition of difficult.

3. Ultimately, it is still subjective, because 1. you may not agree with my definition, and 2. despite what I consider to be pretty glaring evidence otherwise, you could still assert that EQ didn't meet the criteria of that definition.

4. "Taking a long time" to progress your character in and of itself is (in my opinion) probably not enough for me to consider an rpg difficult; however, combined with several other factors (which, again in my opinion, EQ possesses), it lends itself to difficulty.
 
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LadyVex_sl

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mkopec_sl said:
I understand certain people like different things, but IMO those sucky moments in EQ is what made the winning that much sweeter. I never felt victory like that in any other game. Because you were dragged through the mud if you fucked up or were not careful, it made you respect the shit more. It made you have those moments where your heart was in your throat. This also s no longer in current games.

Forget difficulty for a minute. We all get that WoWs encounters were difficult, at least I do. But that general feeling of accomplishment/fear/oh shit moments were just not there. Because you never lost anything (time).

You mention that sirens grotto run. I bet you actually paid attention, and was under a bit of stress while ruining through there, werent you? Especially the first few times, and you didnt even know your way.

THATS whats missing from these games.
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Ok, so we'll ignore difficulty, but you touched upon another issue. Yea it was absolutely cool and there was a definite sense of victory when you made it to the other side, but after the 20th time?

The mobs and encounters themselves were less stressful than the actual runs; most fights came down to a warrior popping his disciplines correctly, the correct pause in a ch chain, monk/bard pulling correctly, (fucking highsunning on corinav, Jesus god) etc, that is really just working the kinks out, and while it always felt awesome to win, (you did have strats, though most came down to what corner he was getting tanked in) it always felt like half of the battle was over before you even engaged him.

I can understand that this represents the layeredness lithose was talking about, but didn't you ever wonder what could be if you didn't have to run through kithicor for the billionth time?

Now believe me, I love the oh shit moments, and the crazy terrifying exploration moments, but with so many of them it often served to stop people from trying things, or exploring. It was a fact that more people saw more of norrath when pop came out, though I think the books went too far.

The solution is to institute both; allow you all of those mad runs and explorations, but after the 18th time, let the players find a more intelligent way of doing it. (One not consisting of invising and praying.). Furthermore, don't have that be the only barriers to things, and/or make them so annoying people won't do shit without a posse backing them. It makes sense to discourage someone from delving the depths of a dungeon without backup, not so much a god damn coastline.

I just have a hard time believing people were fine with the constant ness if these barriers. They never changed, had the same workarounds, and after the initial discovery were just a sinking feeling in your stomach. Not because it was hard, but because it was 20 minutes of something that would do no more than slow you down. I am max level, the fuck can't I epic teleport every once in awhile?
 
Lithose

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Kirun_sl said:
So, let's say I zone into Unrest, not knowing that there's a massive train on the other side. I zone in, die while loading, and now I have a corpse run back to the zone. Through no fault of my own, I've now lost a ton of time. If I'm a non spellcaster, I have to run back from GFay/Kaladim, I have to find a cleric to hopefully procure a res(assuming this is release, 96% resses don't even exist yet, but for devil's advocate sake, let's say it does)from a level 56 or higher cleric(likely going to take a while), and likely pay/tip that cleric, setting me back even more. Now, that's all assuming I can even get a res. I'm set back evenfurtherif I can't. Now, are you seriously going to try and warp that into poor "strategic planning" on my part? That's the game actively punishing you for something you have almost no control over. In fact, if you didn't have any friends/guildmates in Unrest, you hadnocontrol over it, because /ooc chat didn't go through zonelines. If that isn't tedium for tedium's sake, I don't know what is..
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First, lets be honest; how many times did this happen? Now, in 1999 you might have been on a dial up, so this kind of thing was more common for you. But I was lucky enough to be in college in 2000 and on a T1 line, so Irarelydied without something being my fault (I can count them on one hand, literally). You're taking the absolute worst case scenario and trying to trump it as the norm. Also, if you were not bound in Freeport while going to befallen?Yes, that IS absolutely poor strategic planning on your part--part of having layered consequence is you can make sure players, you know, prepare to limit losses? That's like a skydiver not preping his emergency shoot because it's "hard" to get help to prep it :p don't complain when you need it, that is part of the punishment for not planning. And part of strategy is not just planning but also fighting against abstract negatives, like the scope of the land--so if I bind here, I have easy access to resource A and B, but I lose easy access to C, I could not bind and have access to all three but my risk goes up if I die at A or B. (Now, I'll agree it was BS melee couldn't bind themselves; but that goes into a conversation about how OTHER areas of EQ weren't balanced well. Like for example, players were punished brutally if they didn't "prepare" with a resser in group, but only one class had res? That feels like poor balance to me. Other classes should have had different ways to guard against exp loss, and then you make exp loss a factor you can prepare for.)

However, that being said; you'll notice in my post I said Idon'tthink CR's were a good mechanic AND I don't think "allthe difficulty" wasNOTtedium. What I was said was;just because something costs you time? Does not simply make it "tedious" by the very nature of costing time. It's that kind of thinking, that "zomg players need to get back to the action asap or they will hate us!" that has brokered a lot of poor design choices in games (It's called a "power fantasy" in games). There is a balance there, where you need to get players back into the groove, but also provide a layered consequence for mistakes. EQ was too arbitrary and brutal in one direction; WoW is too uniform and easy in the other.

There is a point between, I think, where it would feel good. Again, lets look at Dark Souls--it has a CR TYPE of mechanic. You lose your progress from your "Bind" point and you lose your current exp/humanity--if you get back to your body, you get those things. But they are not irreplaceable (Like say, gear was in EQ); and there is a point where a player can just say fuck it and cut his losses. The point though is that Dark Souls has a system that is JUST punishing enough due to progress costs that it really makes you look at the risk you're taking, but still lenient enough that you're not crippled by sounding the retreat and going back somewhere else to progress.

Now, though I disagree with EQ's CR system; it did get one thing right. The punishment correlated to the level of risk the player assumed by not preparing (IE not binding or setting his group up without a res, or an evac ect) and by how dangerous the area was--dying on the lower level of seb, again, was scarier than dying in upper guk. If I were to look at a punishment system, I wouldn't look at CRs and say "they're great!"...I'd look at how they offered varied play by risk in the zones, and wonder how I could extract that without forcing some arbitrary consequences like your "worst case scenario" above. WoW originally tried to do this with graveyards being farther from hard dungeons but then they just said "fuck it" (And that's because there was nothing intrinsically punishing to theplayerfor his choices, rather it was a set risk per the dungeon and the only way to mediate it was to become tactically better in the fight. It was an an anemic attempt to extract the few good parts from EQ's CRs.)
 
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gogojira_sl

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There are already people happily giving money to the forums and even some wishing for higher tiers. I shit you not this is a thing that's happening.
 
Jimbolini

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gogojira_sl said:
There are already people happily giving money to the forums and even some wishing for higher tiers. I shit you not this is a thing that's happening.
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lol, I asked about 3-6-12 month discount plan....didn't know people were asking for higher forum tiers.
 
BoozeCube

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gogojira_sl said:
There are already people happily giving money to the forums and even some wishing for higher tiers. I shit you not this is a thing that's happening.
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There are also people who run over and tell this team everything bad we might say as if they are some sort of 3rd grade tattle-tail hoping to score additional faction points with there Pantheon overlords. I kind of hope it funds now because anyone who loses money at this point deserves it, better yet some of you should hit up your local payday cash now title loan stores and pledge your next paycheck to the cause.
 
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