Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Tauro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
371
26
Regarding the AMA of Ben linked earlier, he said that they are increasing their team size / new guys are joining the team atm? Who would join the team after this disaster of a KS? Only possible explanation i have is they already got some private funding from investors? Or are those devs joining simply even crazier than those already on board?
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
san diego community college's quiddich team has some students who know a thing or two about computers, and will recieve one college credit for engaging in an exciting, hands on learning experience with visionary realms inc.
 

Dalien

Registered Hodor
2,181
2,020
Regarding the AMA of Ben linked earlier, he said that they are increasing their team size / new guys are joining the team atm? Who would join the team after this disaster of a KS? Only possible explanation i have is they already got some private funding from investors? Or are those devs joining simply even crazier than those already on board?
I think they are joining up while the window is open so they can be full-fledged developers for free. If they wait, they'd have to pay $15/month to just be apprentice developers.
 

Oort_sl

shitlord
36
0
Regarding the AMA of Ben linked earlier, he said that they are increasing their team size / new guys are joining the team atm? Who would join the team after this disaster of a KS? Only possible explanation i have is they already got some private funding from investors? Or are those devs joining simply even crazier than those already on board?
A lot of gaming developers/designers are out of work and getting a real job has become quite competitive. Working on anything industry related looks better on the resume than just having time off between projects. Essentially, this is a LinkedIn profile filler.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
So reviewing the Shroud of the Avatar site and crowdsourcing concept have lead me to the conclusion that had someone competently managed the project, Brad & Co., could have delivered a MMORPG with much less than 8 million.

Google Drive

The link is to SotA art crowdsourcing document - basically they hand out $10 for accepted art which probably works out to $1.00 - $2.00/hour to the Artist (and of course no additional $$ for benefits or equipment or etc) this would have let the hypothetical art team focus on critical things like combat animation and saved a ton.

Not only could Brad have crowdsourced Art for Pantheon, if his hypothetical developer team had taken some hypothetical time to write scripting tools (like Neverwinter RPG) they could have crowdsourced hundreds of minor quests letting the hypothetical design team focus on key quests like: epics and dungeon-based boss quests and etc and saved more than a ton (as for those crowdsourced quests they probably could have gotten away with just handing out a "Support Dev" title in the game's final credits -_- ).

However, my point is not to bury Brad, but to praise crowd sourcing. VR may have fallen into the pit of bad social media ideas, but I think now crowd sourcing an EQ/VG clone can work - provided one of two things happen: a small core team of unknowns delivers a proto-alpha that can raise additional money/awareness on KS and then opens itself up to crowdsourcing or some other MMO named, besides Brad (though to be honest very few people come to mind as having enough old school MMOer mindshare to bring the boys to the yard - another reason why Brad's screwup with this KS is so annoying) needs to release a back of the napkin-only kickstarter just like VR, except with much prettier napkins, exuberant proto-devs and a much lower KS total.
That are all good suggestion for a fresh team that's up to date on their options. Brad&Co with their 90s approach would have failed at it even if someone had told them about, just like they failed to register on major forums for their kickstarter until told so, failed to get in touch with reddit until told so, and so on.

I still want a game like this, but even if someone handed them $10mill now I think they would fail to deliver a game because of bad managing, lack of vision not having any concrete goals or focus. Hoping they make a second kickstarter is not on my list of things to do.
 

Grundge_sl

shitlord
58
0
It's a bit disappointing though I have to say. I would have loved for this KS to have succeeded, but man these guys are so unprofessional it's beyond words really.

This totally brings back memories of my high school years when me and my buddies tried to create our own DnD type game. We had maps, dungeons, characters and some really great lore that we created. Now I look at what VR is showing us and it is not even close to the depth that we had back when we were just nerdy little kids in high school.

These guys are going about this as complete morons, I was going to say amateurs but amateurs at least try. I get the feeling that Brad wants to design a game that will be huge and has aspirations that VR will become a large company like SoE or Blizzard. But these guys have nothing to show us. Bunch of ideas scribbled on paper, a few horrid looking screen shots of them trying to develop scenery? Really?

What gets me is that if he had made a low KS goal, he would have gotten $400,000 by now. Unbelievable how people can so easily part with their money. It's like they read, "Brad McQuaid original producer and co-designer of Everquest ( from Brad's bio )..." and then just jizzed their pants and said OMG have all my money PLZ!

Idk, its nice to see that people want to help and get still get this game off the ground, but its not going to happen, not with this lot. Ah well, it shall be fun to see the disaster ensue as the days go by.
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
It seems now that the KS is pretty doomed to fail, the narrative from the team (and the KS backers) is 'it still raised 400k, that's 8% of all kickstarters'. Keep in mind this just started a day or two ago when reality finally sunk in that this KS wasn't going to get funded. Up until then it was that everyone was just waiting until the least minute. Couple of points here:

1. I think the team grossly miscalculates how much 'walk up' they are going to get on the private site. I think the forum issue as well as an 'item store' for a game that's not even close to a reality at this point turns a ton of people off. People that would of gladly backed this project on KS if it was worth backing.

2. I think the team is looking at this the wrong way. When the KS ends, they look at it and say 'that's great we've got 3k interested in this'. What they should be doing is really examine why the KS failed, why they 'only' got 3k backers. Why it took to only recently to even get halfway? Why did people not want to donate to the KS? By not answering these questions, you are going to run into the exact same funding issues on the private site as you did in the KS, with the added negative of not having the spotlight of kickstarter .

3. The KS failing is a bigger deal than they probably want to give credit to. Because on Sunday all the gaming sites are going to run the story that it failed. Anyone that searches for Pantheon on KS or Kicktraq is going to see a nice red X. Those kind of things destroy momentum and crowdfunding is all about momentum.

4. It is pretty obvious now that this is going to take more than the hardcore EQ fan in order to fund this game, unless Brad knows people with deep pockets. How do they intend to appeal to them? All the things I listed above turns off the average gamer into MMORPG's.
 

Carl_sl

shitlord
634
0
It was always pretty obvious the hardcore eq fan couldn't fund a new game because people on this site look to the progression server and see people who only play that game for the memories and nothing else as people who are still waiting for the next eq when they aren't at all.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,375
1,077
It was always pretty obvious the hardcore eq fan couldn't fund a new game because people on this site look to the progression server and see people who only play that game for the memories and nothing else as people who are still waiting for the next eq when they aren't at all.
I am sure you could get 800k to fund a game similar to EQ. I am also sure that showing up with a trainwreck of a kickstarter with nothing decent to show and giving every objective person who looks at your game the feeling that you are really half assing it is not a good recipe for success no matter what type of game you are trying to make.

If their conclusion is that there aren't enough people who liked EQ/Vanguard conceptually they are wrong, I think. It would be like the guy who shows up to an interview hung over, in a dirty t-shirt smelling like vomit concluding that the company just wasn't interested in hiring at all, rather than correctly realizing that people don't want to give you money when it's clear you are willing to put forth almost no effort.
 

Arctic_Slicer_sl

shitlord
155
0
It seems now that the KS is pretty doomed to fail, the narrative from the team (and the KS backers) is 'it still raised 400k, that's 8% of all kickstarters'. Keep in mind this just started a day or two ago when reality finally sunk in that this KS wasn't going to get funded. Up until then it was that everyone was just waiting until the least minute. Couple of points here:

1. I think the team grossly miscalculates how much 'walk up' they are going to get on the private site. I think the forum issue as well as an 'item store' for a game that's not even close to a reality at this point turns a ton of people off. People that would of gladly backed this project on KS if it was worth backing.

2. I think the team is looking at this the wrong way. When the KS ends, they look at it and say 'that's great we've got 3k interested in this'. What they should be doing is really examine why the KS failed, why they 'only' got 3k backers. Why it took to only recently to even get halfway? Why did people not want to donate to the KS? By not answering these questions, you are going to run into the exact same funding issues on the private site as you did in the KS, with the added negative of not having the spotlight of kickstarter .

3. The KS failing is a bigger deal than they probably want to give credit to. Because on Sunday all the gaming sites are going to run the story that it failed. Anyone that searches for Pantheon on KS or Kicktraq is going to see a nice red X. Those kind of things destroy momentum and crowdfunding is all about momentum.

4. It is pretty obvious now that this is going to take more than the hardcore EQ fan in order to fund this game, unless Brad knows people with deep pockets. How do they intend to appeal to them? All the things I listed above turns off the average gamer into MMORPG's.
I actually just finished typing and sending a 1667 word email to Ben about where I think they made mistakes and what they should have done instead. Unless they can show us their plan I personally don't think they will be able to raise much more than $200,000 on their private website; they'll probably get about $100,000 or so in the first month from the true believers and maybe another $100,000 or so over the next couple month before the money drys up and they are back pretty much where they started. Ben did kind of dodge the question on whether or not they had investors and said that the any investors that they do or not have would have to choose to reveal themselves. The fact that they are adding more team members seems to indicate that they might have found that mythical angel investor; or maybe they are really that ignorant and are doubling down assuming they will still get the money.

Also I created a thread on their official forums(when free members were still able to post) urging them to consider relaunching their kickstater if this one fails. You can find it here though you'll have to log in to see it.Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Consider Relaunching Your Kickstarter if This One Fails
 

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
It was always pretty obvious the hardcore eq fan couldn't fund a new game because people on this site look to the progression server and see people who only play that game for the memories and nothing else as people who are still waiting for the next eq when they aren't at all.
I agree with you but some on this forum are never going to agree with this. I think people confuse nostalgia for 'wanting another EQ'. Most of the people playing either EQ progression servers or even P1999 are playing for simply nostalgia reasons. That lasts all of a month at most, tops and then they move on. It again goes to the question 'how big of a pool is there really?' How many of those that would be potentially into something like this would only be due to nostalgia, which in turn wouldn't last long anyway?
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
So reviewing the Shroud of the Avatar site and crowdsourcing concept have lead me to the conclusion that had someone competently managed the project, Brad & Co., could have delivered a MMORPG with much less than 8 million.

Google Drive

The link is to SotA art crowdsourcing document - basically they hand out $10 for accepted art which probably works out to $1.00 - $2.00/hour to the Artist (and of course no additional $$ for benefits or equipment or etc) this would have let the hypothetical art team focus on critical things like combat animation and saved a ton.
SOTA did a ton right in regards to Kickstarter, but the main thing is they slowly built up on their known audience, and Garriott invested in his project and hired a bunch of tech people <note, not 9 game 'designers'>. They made their design document known and made their case for a 3D spiritual successor to Ultima from day one in a very professional and consistent manner.

I didn't donate, because, well, I refuse to 'donate' to a game from a guy who just spent 30M to go into space.

VR may have fallen into the pit of bad social media ideas, but I think now crowd sourcing an EQ/VG clone can work - provided one of two things happen: a small core team of unknowns delivers a proto-alpha that can raise additional money/awareness on KS and then opens itself up to crowdsourcing or some other MMO named, besides Brad (though to be honest very few people come to mind as having enough old school MMOer mindshare to bring the boys to the yard - another reason why Brad's screwup with this KS is so annoying) needs to release a back of the napkin-only kickstarter just like VR, except with much prettier napkins, exuberant proto-devs and a much lower KS total.
Given how much larger and more rabid the EQ -> WOW fanbase is and the fact there is such a larger pool of donations that theoretically should be availabe, a successor to Everquest is a slam dunk if the KS is done right. Kingdom Come is a great example, and it's an even more niche audience.

There are dozens of pages of valid reasons why this Kickstarter failed, but the simple truth is it failed by doing the exact opposite of SOTA, and to some degree Camelot Unchained.

I hope I'm proven wrong and they put their donations to good effort, but my common sense meter tells me this game never sees the light of day in any manner that resembles a game better than the original EQ.
 

Delly

Trakanon Raider
2,981
622
It is almost as if gamers are finally removing their heads out of their asses and refusing to pay for games that don't seem to be getting a lot of love from its devs. You would think a successor to EQ would get $800k if not more easily, but it just shows another studio that has no love for its own game. Their team may be inexperienced with KS, but they have still been in the business and SHOULD know how to appeal to gamers.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,761
613
I actually just finished typing and sending a 1667 word email to Ben about where I think they made mistakes and what they should have done instead. Unless they can show us their plan I personally don't think they will be able to raise much more than $200,000 on their private website; they'll probably get about $100,000 or so in the first month from the true believers and maybe another $100,000 or so over the next couple month before the money drys up and they are back pretty much where they started. Ben did kind of dodge the question on whether or not they had investors and said that the any investors that they do or not have would have to choose to reveal themselves. The fact that they are adding more team members seems to indicate that they might have found that mythical angel investor; or maybe they are really that ignorant and are doubling down assuming they will still get the money.

Also I created a thread on their official forums(when free members were still able to post) urging them to consider relaunching their kickstater if this one fails. You can find it here though you'll have to log in to see it.Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Consider Relaunching Your Kickstarter if This One Fails
Saw your bullets. They know all that stuff. Privately they had to decide why the ks was failing. Was it no interest in the game or other reasons? They decided other reasons, things like a bad ks(launch and content) VG drama, people not wanting to pledge to a KS, etc. personally I think they are right. Gamers are a forgiven bunch, and will still try a game if the word of mouth is there. I personally wanted them to try another KS once they got farther along and use some of the rerolled folks as a focus group.

Even tho Ben didn't answer the investor question, I know they were talking to 2 people. I don't know what happen, but that was as of the beginning of the week. Not sure I am violating their trust by saying that...

It's a tough situation they put themselves in because they are unorganized. Being under one roof would help get them on the same page, but they need money first, and they can't seem to do the things people want, to get them under one roof. Honestly, if they are going to continue to work out of their houses, they need to break up into teams and work together for 8-12 hours a day. Sal said he was working 16 hours a day on pantheon, I'm sure having the rest of the designers working 8-12 hours in the same room with him would help more than hurt. A lot of their problems can be resolved by simply getting father on the game.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,329
43,177
they'll probably get about $100,000 or so in the first month from the true believers and maybe another $100,000 or so over the next couple month
This would currently require that every single registered person on their private website donate a minimum of ~200.00 each. I would guess that less than 75% of the registered users will turn into paid users. I highly doubt they'll get even close to that 100,000. They need to regroup, do some actual work and make a new Kickstarter. That private website funding is going to be the kiss of death for a lot of people.