Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Lithose

Lithose

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Boozecube_sl said:
This argument is tired on both sides, there is no solid evidence to support either claim. What I can guarantee is if VR Inc. actually had a solid kickstarter that inspired confidence that they could accomplish something they would have at least 1 more backer (myself) and I am guessing that I am not the only one who feels that way. The kickstarter was so bad with such a low bar that the people who actually pledged money could only be a small minority of people.
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There isn't any solid evidence, true. But if you take a look at some of the journals about KS funding and statistics that actually use good regression models (The one I'm thinking of I just looked up, Dynamics of Crowd funding)? One of the things is that comes through is the "confidence" that "signals of quality" bring. And those signals are as simple as a demo of the product, a pitch video and stable updates that are clear, articulate and don't have errors (That need to be "re done).

Brad failed 2 of those 3. Many of his releases had to be revised mid stream, many of his reward structures were convoluted and required post release editing; it was just a mess. From those studies, we see that how many backers a community delivers? Takes a significant (Very large) hit depending on these "low quality" signals. The fact they breached 50% is pretty amazing given this--it's also HIGHLY abnormal. Most KS's that pass 30% tend to finish funding, especially if they pass it early on (Which Pantheon did).

The other big factor was, as you said, networking. Which Brad also didn't have a plan for.

Brad literally shot himself in the foot with his lack of preparation and shitty marketing. I'm still shocked he got as much as he did considering the quality of the campaign. Given the normal statistical trends? He shouldn't have gotten over 30% if he was asking for 100k, due to just the quality of the campaign. (Yes, though, I'm making some subjective points about quality...but still, it was pretty damn bad. I don't think anyone is going to slight me for saying it should be in the "low quality" zone, which according to what I've read increases it's failure rate by around 27%, 50+% if the videos didn't exist, and given Brad's videos were bad? I'm tempted to say they may as well have not existed.)

Boozecube_sl said:
Which only further goes to show how out of touch they are,
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Yep, totally agree with you.
 
S

Sev_sl

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rrr_img_61092.jpg



/inc Jimmy Rustle
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Kirun_sl said:
I think it speaks more to how easily consumers are parted with their money, especially nowadays. 3k backers tells the real story of this mess. Now, evenifthere is enough potential interest, after Vanguard and this debacle, there is no plausible scenario in which Brad McQuaid is the person who brings it to realization.
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Again though, 3k backers is a large amount when you look at KS as a whole (Even 10k$+ campaigns), and how many fails Brad went through. In papers written on KS, there are huge drop offs due to a lack of perceived quality and confidence. Brad nearly check listed off all those "bad signals"--the only thing he got right was he had a pitch video, but even that was bad. So given that, it's not exactly a stretch to assume the community "around" those 3k backers was quite large. (Also a lot of things about this were so abnormal...Like I said above, usually if a KS fails, it fails well below 30%. The fact that Brad's KS didn't have a "post 50" surge? I think speaks to how badly he botched the campaign.)

It's kind of like if a snake oil salesmen sells a tonic for headaches and he sells enough to make him a good amount of money. You could say the town he was fleecing were just idiots. Or you might say the town has a headache problem and so he got money despite no one having confidence, just because everyone is desperate.

Brad was that salesmen. The fact that he got 3k people, and 400k dollars, with such a bad campaign? Speaks to me of a market being out there. Again, I wouldn't be confident enough to say "its big enough for a triple A MMO!"...but it's certainly big enough for an indi project, I believe. (Again though, just my opinion).

But yeah, I totally agree with you; after this and Vanguard, it's not going to be Brad that's the vehicle to tap this market.
 
F

Fingz_sl

shitlord
238
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Kirun_sl said:
I think it speaks more to how easily consumers are parted with their money, especially nowadays. 3k backers tells the real story of this mess. Now, evenifthere is enough potential interest, after Vanguard and this debacle, there is no plausible scenario in which Brad McQuaid is the person who brings it to realization.
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In America there are people who fail a dozen times before they finally hit it big. Macys, the guy who invented the Xerox copier come to mind. Ozzy Ozborn.
 
iannis

iannis

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Quaid_sl said:
...uhhhh 'significant personalities' who actually do good work and don't shovel bullshit tend to do quite well here. Hartsman seems to not have many problems with trolls over in his thread. Wonder why that is?
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Hartsman deservedly gets his knob gobbled every time he shows up. Which isn't very often. The worst "troll" he gets is along the lines of, "Yeah. I think Scott is over rated". And that's not even a troll, that's perfectly fair.

Smed shows up maybe once a year and isn't immediately gangraped. In fact, people are kinda like, "Woah -- that's Smed?"

Schilling had his knob gobbled, even when he obviously didn't deserve it. That only stopped when the drama started.

Even Brad, EVEN BRAD, who deserves nothing but constant mockery, is allowed a window in which to come prove to us trolls that this time he's been touched by the very hand of the Lord and has realized how full of bullshit he is -- and is given the chance to actually say something of substance. EVEN BRAD.

So, yeah. Brad is just full of shit. He wants the truth? He can't handle the truth.

In fact the truth has a direct negative impact on his business model.
 
BoozeCube

BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
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Lithose_sl said:
There isn't any solid evidence, true. But if you take a look at some of the journals about KS funding and statistics that actually use good regression models (The one I'm thinking of I just looked up, Dynamics of Crowd funding)? One of the things is that comes through is the "confidence" that "signals of quality" bring. And those signals are as simple as a demo of the product, a pitch video and stable updates that are clear, articulate and don't have errors (That need to be "re done).

Brad failed 2 of those 3. Many of his releases had to be revised mid stream, many of his reward structures were convoluted and required post release editing; it was just a mess. From those studies, we see that how many backers a community delivers? Takes a significant (Very large) hit depending on these "low quality" signals. The fact they breached 50% is pretty amazing given this--it's also HIGHLY abnormal. Most KS's that pass 30% tend to finish funding, especially if they pass it early on (Which Pantheon did).

The other big factor was, as you said, networking. Which Brad also didn't have a plan for.

Brad literally shot himself in the foot with his lack of preparation and shitty marketing. I'm still shocked he got as much as he did considering the quality of the campaign. Given the normal statistical trends? He shouldn't have gotten over 30% if he was asking for 100k, due to just the quality of the campaign. (Yes, though, I'm making some subjective points about quality...but still, it was pretty damn bad. I don't think anyone is going to slight me for saying it should be in the "low quality" zone, which according to what I've read increases it's failure rate by around 27%, 50+% if the videos didn't exist, and given Brad's videos were bad? I'm tempted to say they may as well have not existed.)

Yep, totally agree with you.
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Of Kickstarter's that reach more than 20% of the goal 81% fund, of those who reach 60% of the goal over 98% fund. Kickstarter often tends to be an all or nothing game, so to get over 20% in the first couple of days and then not-fund is prove enough to me that the "quality" isn't there.

I honestly do believe that there is a market for "persistent state world with MUD style risk/reward" persistent means no lobby, no instances, many games are moving away from the persistent model these days.

  • Battlegrounds
  • Arenas
  • Scenarios
  • Raids
  • Dungeons
  • X-realm (you are placed in a different version)
  • Phasing

For a game like WoW this is where players spend 99.9% of their time. The only "persistent state" is the cities and to a degree dailies in the world environment.

Even if it's a minority, I think that if someone build a fun persistent world and the goal was to feel like you were a character in this world with danger and risk/reward that is could be a profitable venture, and I believe there is a larger audience out there than expected.

Even though GroupQuest is a joke, looking at the pictures of a reskinned EQ, how possible would it be to basically take EQ as a base modernize it and change it enough to not be sued? Could that be done by a small indie team rather cheaply.
 
iannis

iannis

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Um. Ozzy didn't fail dozens of times.

Ozzy got kicked out of Black Sabbath because they thought he was going to OD while they were on a gig... and then Ozzy got a little suicidal... and then Sharon decided to marry him.

At worst, Ozzy failed once.
 
Kirun

Kirun

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Lithose_sl said:
The fact that he got 3k people, and 400k dollars, with such a bad campaign? Speaks to me of a market being out there.
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That's a fair assumption, but I think you have to compare thetypeof backers this campaign attracted. EQ "die-hards" are fanatical as hell, to the point of downright frightening. They really should be their own religion at this point. That group of people would have thrown money at any project by Brad, no matter the content, no matter the quality. That's precisely why this KS ended up as a statistical anomaly, because no matter what, that confidence was never going to drop/falter. This is also shown in how fanatical they became at the end of the campaign. "Take out another credit card!", "Dig deep, guys!", etc. 20+% of the backers pledged 100+ dollars, which seems insane to me.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Boozecube_sl said:
Of Kickstarter's that reach more than 20% of the goal 81% fund, of those who reach 60% of the goal over 98% fund. Kickstarter often tends to be an all or nothing game, so to get over 20% in the first couple of days and then not-fund is prove enough to me that the "quality" isn't there.
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Yep, if I were to give my post mortem opnion. I'd say a high quality version of this KS, with a good, solid campaign plan? Would have easily made it's goal. Just looking at the trends for how KS campaigns beyond certain funding thresholds typically finish. I'm pretty convinced it was quality that put this particular sow out to pasture. (Again, I wouldn't be confident to say the market is huge, or anything, but it's certainly big enough for a niche game, I believe.)

Kirun_sl said:
That's a fair assumption, but I think you have to compare thetypeof backers this campaign attracted. EQ "die-hards" are fanatical as hell, to the point of downright frightening. They really should be their own religion at this point. That group of people would have thrown money at any project by Brad, no matter the content, no matter the quality. That's precisely why this KS ended up as a statistical anomaly, because no matter what, that confidence was never going to drop/falter. This is also shown in how fanatical they became at the end of the campaign. "Take out another credit card!", "Dig deep, guys!", etc. 20+% of the backers pledged 100+ dollars or more, which seems insane to me.
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Yeah, there is no denying fanatical EQ fans are nuttier than squirrel turds, heh.
 
zzeris

zzeris

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I also think the audience for this game just isn't really there. 3100 is a very small number and a graphical reimagining of EQ should be easy and doable for Brad. Yet, even he isn't really doing that and we have to wonder why. No one is really trying to make a game like this. Garriott, Roberts, and Jacobs all funded a well made KS of a reimagining of their prior successes. Why isn't anyone trying to do this? Brad isn't really even doing it. He's just trying to milk anyone so he feels relevant again. Not even his own team supports him. I'd like to believe there is an audience but nothing has ever even hinted at that conclusion. The evidence otherwise is pretty deafening though.

Saying that this attempt was one of the largest ever on KS means very little. Brad is a very experienced developer who is well known. How many other KS starters can really say that? Most of them are small, homegrown projects so it's not really a fair comparison. I could set up a huge banquet for the top people in DC with some of the top chefs in the world making the food. Bill Clinton could have planned one out of the back of a homeless shelter and used the shelter's staff as his cooks. Who would get more guests from an invitation? Brad being a fuck up is only part of the issue. It does not imply a base of support either way. The total lack of anyone making something like this? That really speaks volumes.

Pantheon sounds like an abortion of a concept. The effort applied so far is laughable. The only real question I have is: Do we have anyone in the apprentice forums to help bring the laughs? Because that stuff was and probably still is hilarious.
 
arallu

arallu

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zzeris_sl said:
The only real question I have is: Do we have anyone in the apprentice forums to help bring the laughs? Because that stuff was and probably still is hilarious.
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Eh, you can view most of the forums without signing up, they just took down direct link on the main page:https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums
Also, this might be quashed soon, but you can see some members posts in their profiles,www.pantheonrotf.com/members, even though the posts are in the 'sekret' area lol:

"February 22, 2014 10:13 PM PST in the topic Pledge Levels? Not a good start... in the forum Apprentice Developer's Hangout
Turbo, I checked on the deadline. It's 10 days. If people want to retain what they originally pledged via kickstarter if it's not available as a tier here, they need to do so within ten days. Hope that answers the question. "

"February 23, 2014 6:29 AM PST in the topic Some tiers are the same in the forum Staff Forum
Received this note this morn: Ben there's a post highlighting that some tiers share the same rewards at different prices.I brought it up with Tony, but I know that's not necessarily what he does same rewards for different pricesPantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Same of the tiers are same?andPantheon: Rise of the Fallen - SubscriptionsWasn't sure who else to give the heads up to. Also will there be an expiry date on reclaiming your KS tiers that aren't offered here?"
 
Melvin

Melvin

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Lithose_sl said:
Yep, if I were to give my post mortem opnion. I'd say a high quality version of this KS, with a good, solid campaign plan? Would have easily made it's goal. Just looking at the trends for how KS campaigns beyond certain funding thresholds typically finish. I'm pretty convinced it was quality that put this particular sow out to pasture. (Again, I wouldn't be confident to say the market is huge, or anything, but it's certainly big enough for a niche game, I believe.)
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I can't agree more about how the amateur hour KS held back what could have been (the same way a potato sack and a brick can hold back a litter of puppies at the bottom of a river). But at the same time, if Pantheon had been an actual game that actually existed when the KS went live, the devs would have already made decisions that would turn potential backers away. In it's current state (i.e. vapor) Pantheon can be whatever each and every Apprentice Developer wishes it to be. The more real Pantheon is, the more people will be alienated by VR's bad decisions. I don't mean thatallof VR's game design decisions are going to be as terribly inept and misguided as their KS design decisions, but that at some point, most potential players are going to have at least some piss splashed into their Cheerios by the VR devs, even if it's not a direct stream.
 
kudos

kudos

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Lets show the naysayers we can make PAntheon!!!

I have been on many sites like MMORPG.com posters there are being very negative about the kickstarter. They ignore that the kickstarter was in the top 8% of all games ever among other kickstarters in games.

What we need to do is pledge more than ever! Let's make sure not only that Pantheon happens, but it is even better than ever imagined! LEt's make this game so epic it puts Vanguard to shame!

I know all of us believe in the dev team or we would not be here. LEts show them how much we believe in PAntheon. Pledge the most you can! I pledged $250 that is a lot of money for me, ion fact it is more than I earn in a week. My point is if you loved Vanguard and Everquest, fund whatever you reasonably can into Pantheon! Let's make sure this game is not only great, let's male sure it is EPIC!
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This guy spends more than he earns in a week on this fucking bullshit.
 
kudos

kudos

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0876_a925.jpg


The Throne.

Cold, barren, hard, stone.



There he sat, tired, if that he could, the small red beacons of his existence dimmed, as if he had the eyelids to close. They say time passes in fleeting moments for those that cling to the unlife, those who death itself could not defeat. He could tell you, if he had the will, that it just isn't so. Time passes for those without finite limts slowly, in long drawn days of light and darkness. A smile, well if he had the lips to smile it crossed his face.



"HA I have become as bad as the living I will exterminate." His voice hollow, seemingly from far away.



He pondered a moment, and rose from, his throne in OId Targonor. His ancient worm eaten robes rustled around his body, causing the dust upon the old stone floor to rise up in little wisps of air current.



He stopped, looking over the map, the crude map he had made of Telon, it showed all three continents, a world for him to rule. He lingered over Thestra, yes it was now all his, laughing he remembered the king shouting to his men from the walls, the bards singing ballads of courage, but it was all for not. Past that he looked upon Kojan, weak, not even worth his time. No he wanted Qalia next, those fools will think I will take the archipelago but its weak, and not worth my time, no I will sail past in the night and take Qalia.



"Yes, the desert fools, they will not last long. Their strength lies within the children of haelufir, but untrusted and splintered the Dark Elves will fall one faction at a time. The Varanthari, horse lords, no you are not even a warrior's breath now, even with the Kurashasa influence you will fall in a fortnight. The Gnomes represent strength in magic, but their unwillingness to share will be there undoing, Mekalia represents no threat, its unworthiness lies in the lack of use for their corpses. The humans number many and have fortified Khal, I must have a deep water port, they know this, but they think they have time."



Smiling he leapt up through a broken window, his lifeless form almost like a giant bat on the currents of air, he landed upon the spire of the chapel his throne sat in. A great feat was this, a stumbling block to all those who seek the eyes of goodly faith, he now sat his throne upon their grounds once sacred now defiled. He looked out over the sea, hundreds of ships, from Galleons to Caravels loaded with his legions of undead. There over seeing the final preparations, Exmortis knight of the dead.



"Soon, soon he will leave, soon Qalia will know war, death.. And a new life"



Necrostophiles slipped down back to his throne, his 13 skeletal knight guards moved not, they only engaged when spoken to or when ordered. Smiling, yes how well the 13 protected him, laying dead around their king, and his face when they rose to do the bidding of their new master. Slowly Necrostophiles's mind wandered back, back to the beginning, to where it all started.



The beginning...



"There is no way to win, with every death you grow weaker, with every death we go stronger"!

An excerpt from the Chronicles of Necrostophiles
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It's like a fucking Brad cult. They even have their avatars with pics of each other together.
 
Cinge

Cinge

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Uh 250 is more then he/she earns in a week and spends it to pledge to some idiots. Just WTF.

I actually weep for the community on that board and it would be a boon to society to just have them all wiped out.

I no longer want this type of game made to see if it can be successful and to play it. I now want it made just to keep the cesspool that it seems to attract confined to one place.
 
kudos

kudos

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Cinge_sl said:
Uh 250 is more then he/she earns in a week and spends it to pledge to some idiots. Just WTF.

I actually weep for the community on that board and it would be a boon to society to just have them all wiped out.

I no longer want this type of game made to see if it can be successful and to play it. I now want it made just to keep the cesspool that it seems to attract confined to one place.
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We have LoL/DOTA and WoW for that though.
 
bytes

bytes

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This whole affair long has crossed over from 'grossly incompetent' to 'shameful and embarrassing'. Guess there's just idiots who will pay for absolutely anything, no matter what.
 
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