Political Affiliation

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That is some old school shit right there.

The army of bobites will slither into your disorganized ranks and their pockets shall swell with all your spare change. Hail Eris, prabob!
I miss the guy, he should be required reading freshman year of high school. the world would be a saner place in 20 yrs.

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shattuck_sl

shitlord
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Can you explain how this would work in practice? I would love to hear some thoughts on the practical application of a system completely devoid of oversight/penalties.
apparently all you need to do is study how 4 year olds act in pre-school to figure out how anarchy would translate to real life
 

OneofOne

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Ah, so the bigger kids steal toys from the smaller kids, and they push each other around when they get pissy. Sounds like paradise in an adult setting!
 

Burnem Wizfyre

Log Wizard
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Asking questions is the beginning of wisdom.

What defines the center? Its not a terribly hard question but one your far-left compatriots have failed to ask. The answer is this. Take the relevant political parties (hint: there are two) and arrange them on a left-right axis. One is farther left, the other is farther right. The party farthest to the left is the left wing party, the party to the right is the right wing party, and "centrist" is the point equidistant between them.

Foreign political ideologies are irrelevant for this discussion. The center isnt defined by taking a global average. The center is the middle point in between the American left and the American right.

By definition, the Democratic party is not the center.
Goal posts have been moved, what was center then is left now. While you can call democrats left because they technically are, if you compare where the left is today against the past 30 years you will notice a shift to the center while the republicans have did nothing but move so far to the right that the democrats were forced to shift toward the center (though in todays climate still the left) as republicans have gone off to bat shit crazy land. That is why we say things like "Reagan would be a democrat in todays political world"
 

Burnem Wizfyre

Log Wizard
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Yeah what the left is promoting is what you label as extreme policy, complete ban of a certain class of weapons. The right is promoting actually enforcing the existing laws, which you labeled centrist. So using your definitions additional gun control that the left is trying to force on us is not centrist.
Want to know why we can't enforce laws that exist today when it concerns guns? That would be because your party made it illegal for the ATF to actually enforce those laws, educate yourself.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...rrent-gun-laws
 

Mist

Eeyore Enthusiast
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That is some old school shit right there.

The army of bobites will slither into your disorganized ranks and their pockets shall swell with all your spare change. Hail Eris, prabob!
I've just never found a philosophy that's better summed up my view of life better than the Principia Discordia.

Well, besides Douglas Adams books.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
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apparently all you need to do is study how 4 year olds act in pre-school to figure out how anarchy would translate to real life
Pretty much dude. The idea is so pants on head oblivious to fucking reality that's the MOST serious reply that anyone can muster.
 

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
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When someone says "I'm an anarchist" I hear "I'm either stupid or I haven't thought this through". In fact, the best response would be to beat the shit out of them with a lead pipe and then say "Since you're an anarchist, I know you're not going to call the cops about this, and of course you won't use any public roads to go to the hospital, or go to the hospital at all, you're just going to bleed to death and think about how free you are right?".
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
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The real problem with anarchy, and with the hunting and gatherer lifestyle that goes with it, is that we got too good at them, too successful. Not enough people dying from conflict/environmental hazards = booming populations = can't support that many people with hunting gathering lifestyle anymore = need to find a way to get more calories from less land = agriculture and the rest is history.

No, anarchy won't work in the modern world because there's too many people, too few resources, and everyone likes to cram together in giant urban population centers, which increases conflict dramatically.

But from the right perspective, anarchic communalism was the most successful form of governance the world has ever seen.

Also: I really need to put the bong down.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
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The problem is simple. The argument proceeds from the assumption that left to themselves individuals do not need or benefit from governance of their communal behaviors. It then concludes with the assertion that left to themselves individuals do not need or benefit from governance of their communal behaviors.

It's a thought that starts in denial and proceeds through oblivious as it slowly meanders to nowhere. It's an adolescent daydream.

But that's the interesting thing about the thought. What would an actual anarchy look like? What we probably think of and refer to as an anarchy is not -- power still gravitates to the center. There are just more centers, and they shift, and they are unstable. But they're still there. The lack of a dominant authority is not itself anarchy. Anarchy is the lack of all authority -- which would look an awful lot like the ultimate expression of liberty and the realization of true equality.

It would look a lot like what we see in animal populations. But, as we know from observing their behaviors, not even brute animal populations operate in anarchy. It remains a wholly cerebral fantasy.

Bacon went over this.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
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You should probably look into how Anthropologists define anarchy, and how it applies to groups like the San and the many many tribes of Southern Africa, particularly in the pre colonial era, with communalist societies and local organization based on kinship and division of labor based on gender, with a rejection of any centralized authority, before reaching a conclusion that anarchy has never existed, or asking what it would look like when perfectly good examples exist in the ethnographic record.

One way to define anarchy is a state of absolute lawlessness, with no rules, and winner takes all. This has never existed and will never really exist and shouldn't exist.

But a far better definition for what it looks like in the real world would be spontaneous, locally based organization, often democratic in nature, but never backed by the type of power that a central bureaucracy or government would have, being capable of coercion through monopolization of force.

The problem is that the hunting and gathering and tribal way of life was so successful at producing new humans and raising them to survive in the environment without dying before reproductive age, that populations boomed. With booming populations comes the absolute need to organize them in order to produce the most amount of calories per square mile possible. This is why humans began collecting in cities and growing food in the first place. When you need to build a massive irrigation network to supply your fields, and you need to manage large herds of draft and food animals, then the ability to organize spontaneously at a local level becomes greatly hampered.

But all that aside, ignoring that anarchy did work, for nearly 20 times (just counting homo sapiens, not counting the two MILLION years that homo erectus practiced the exact same style of living techniques) as long as agricultural societies have worked is just being a bit misguided, in my opinion, and is possibly born of ignorance (read: lack of knowledge, not stupidity) of how pre historical societies were structured (prehistorical is a debatable and Euro-centric term in and of itself, mind). Prehistoric and tribal societies lived without centralized authority for hundreds of thousands of years, and every day people got along just fine, for the most part, living full and happy lives, and many did not die till their 60s. In fact, for the most part, if you made it out of your early teens in those societies, you lived a very full life.

But no, anarchy of the self organizing nature won't work in the modern world for the same reasons it stopped working once populations started to grow rapidly, that is to say, once you have a real competition for resources, the only way to keep humans (or probably any species) functioning properly is through a more direct, intentional, and top down management system. To put it anthropologically, centralized authority is an adaptation driven by a real demand in the culture or society, based in the need to better organize distribution of a limited amount of resources amongst a rapidly growing population.

But there are always flaws in top down management, like not being able to develop the proper path for local governance because of the remoteness of one location from another and the lack of knowledge of one group of another. Or exploitative centralized bureaucracies which take and take and take from outer regions to feed the core or most politically important regions, without giving much back in return, an extremely common occurance in governance around the world.

However, with the way technology decentralizes so many things, I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the not so far flung future, things were far more decentralized than they are today, with smaller cities, lower population levels due to faster development and higher education leading to declining population, and more automated, or algorithm driven governance/decision making processes over all.

A good example of this trend would be something like Google's self driving vehicles and the capacity for GPS technology to (potentially) be utilized to organize traffic flow in such a way that people wouldn't have to even drive a vehicle at all, everything would be spontaneously organized on the fly by decentralized processing servers.

Note that I'm not arguing for anarchy as a viable form of government in the modern world, nor am I making a naturalist fallacy here.

I'm really just pointing out that you guys are arguing a bit of a narrow definition of the term anarchy, which is fine, but that would be an etymological fallacy if that is the case. Because the definition of anarchy in social science circles today, especially anthropological circles is a bit broader than just "an absence of law".

Look to Kant's definition of anarchy for a much better definition of the term than the one you're using.

Note: The guy who brought up anarchy in the first place is also wrong on his definition, anarchy is by definition democratic, because it is the result of spontaneous, local agreement and reciprosity. So yeah. It pretty much involves a local community making decisions which affect itself, without necessarily having to worry that a larger authority outside that area will come in and override their decision, particularly at the point of a gun.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
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That's just a retreat into jargon.

Which is fine, because sure there are shades of things. But that's not what the first guy was talking about.

I would point out that what we can learn and deduce from artifacts is extremely malleable body of knowledge -- and while much of the supposition made may be sincere, scholarly, justifiable, honest, and truthfulthis is the sort of knowledge where the most relevant facts will elude us and the current intellectual fashion could still be completely assbackwards for all of the diligence. It's just kind of a problem with what basically amounts to social philosophy. As evidenced by the idea that the term anarchy needs to be redefined and refined every so often. Hell, that's not a bad thing. I'd just be careful thinking that any one definition is the best definition.
 

shattuck_sl

shitlord
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Note: The guy who brought up anarchy in the first place is also wrong on his definition, anarchy is by definition democratic, because it is the result of spontaneous, local agreement and reciprosity. So yeah. It pretty much involves a local community making decisions which affect itself, without necessarily having to worry that a larger authority outside that area will come in and override their decision, particularly at the point of a gun.
I said democracy and anarchy are incompatible, I stand by that. I didn't say it had an absence of law, I said an absence of government. An absence of legislative law? yes. an absence of natural law? no. an absence of social law? no.

Can you explain to me why anarchy is democratic 'because it results from spontaneous agreement and reciprocity'? I don't necessarily see the bridge between those two ideas. I'd be willing to bend on anarchy and democracy being incompatible depending on how loosely we're defining democracy, I'm assuming the standard presidential/parliamentary definition. Would you consider a system of voluntary association, where the majority choosing to enact something which would be non-binding with respect to the minority, part of the democratic taxonomy?
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
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I was typing a huge page worth of quotes and responses, when I realized this discussion is best left to the undeniable experts, who address almost every point both of you made better, and probably more succinctly, than I am capable of. So I'm going to quote, directly, from April Gordon and Donald Gordon's work "Understanding Contemporary Africa" which is one of the most widely referenced and utilized books in African culture classes in anthropology departments around the globe. This is from Chapter 3, starting on page 34, running to page 36, the section titled "Political Patterns of the Past: Stateless Societies"

Until the 1960s, most historians relied on written sources, so most history tended to be about societies with writing. Since most African societies did not develop writing, the historical record before about 500 BCE was sparse, gleaned from accounts of non-African travelers, usually Muslims, and archaeological remains. In the past fifty years, specialists in African history have learned to use historical linguistics, oral traditions, and other sources to overcome the apparent lack of evidence and develop a far better understanding of African history.

Nevertheless, many writers of world history texts continues to treat human societies without writing as "prehistoric." This is rather ironic given that even in those complex urban-centered societies called civilizations, which have had written records for more than 5,000 years, only a small minority of people were literate, and most people did not live in cities. Certainly in Africa this prehistoric-historic distinction has little value. Most historians of Africa realize that a focus on written sources alone would mean virtually ignoring the histories of the vast majority of Africa's peoples, both those who were able to achieve -through kinship, ritual and other means- relatively orderly and just societies without centralized governments or states and those who lived in city-centered societies without writing.

In fact, until about 2,500 years ago, virtually all Africans living south of the Sahara were able to avoid relying on bureaucratic organizations or "states" to carry out the political requirements of their societies. Even large groups created social systems based on lineage (kinship) with no single center of power or authority. Under the right conditions, such systems could accomodate several million people. On the local level, lineage systems depended on a balance of power to solve political problems. People in these societies controlled conflict and resolved disputes through a balance of centers of cooperation and opposition, which appear to have been almost universal in human societies. This human ethic of cooperation was especially crucial in herding and agricultural societies that existed in the often challenging physical environments of Africa (Turnbull, 1973:233-255)

Variations of lineage systems also helped Africans resist European colonial domination. For example, colonial attempts to divide African into districts, cantons, and even "tribes" were doomed to failure when most of the continent south of the Sahara was really a kaleidoscope of lineage fragments, scattering and regrouping as the need arose. Through marriage alliances and various forms of reciprocal exchanges, these networks could expand almost indefinitely. As an example, European officials erroneously assumed that their control of an important African authority figure ensured the "pacification" of a given territory. The Africans, on the other hand, could simply turn to another member of a kinship linkage and continue their struggle against the outsiders. Africa's past demostrates the truly remarkable ability of African peoples to resist incorporation into state political and economic organizations right up to the present (Gilbert and Reynolds, 2008:58-59). This represents one of the most interesting aspects of the history of this continent's peoples. There were many African societies that have been classified by political historians as stateless or decentralized. These terms are used to describe societies that did not have well-defined and complex or centralized systems of government. Perhaps as many as a third of the people of Africa on the eve of colonial rule lived in stateless or decentralized societies. For many years, these societies were not well studied by historians both because of lack of sources and because of prejudice. Initially most historians accepted a view that only societies that are centralized were worth studying. Until the past thirty years, many historians of Africa looked at African history through the lens of European history and took the existence of states as a mark of political achievement - the bigger the state, the bigger the achievement. Most authorities now agree that this view is far from accurate.

A brief case study on the Igbo-speaking peoples show that stateless societies can be culturally and socially sophisticated. The Igbo live in the southeastern part of contemporary Nigeria. The Igbo are neighbors of the highly politically centralized Yoruba, but their political system is much different. Instead of centralized kingdoms headed by powerful "kings" and their advisers, the Igbo had no centralized system of governance. Rather they lived in politically autonomous villages. That is, each village was politically separate and was not politically connected to neighboring villages. Within the villages, there was not a system of hereditary chiefs. Village decisions were made by a headman and a council of elders that selected the headman. The absence of a centralized system of government did not mean that there was no system or institutions of governance among the Igbo. In addition to village-based councils of elders, there were religious organizations that provided regulations that governed people's lives. These organizations guaranteed that no one group or institutions gained too much power - a system of checks and balances! The absence of centralized government did not hinder the economic, social, and economic development the Igbo peoples. Indeed, just as did their Yoruba neighbors, the Igbo-speaking peoples developed a specialized and diversified economy based on agriculture, textiles and trade.

Many Africans still rely on extended family organizations and call upon kinship behavior to maintain justice and cultural and territorial integrity, not only in domestic but also in wider spheres. And as in the past, many Africans still see any state without at least some symbolic lineage-based authority as inherently tyrannical. The continuing desire to seek and find order in institutions other than the state is very understandable in the African context where failed states, military dictatorships, and "presidents for life" have become all too common in the past fifty years (Meredith, 2005).

One important aspect of persisting kinship networks, still very important in Africa, is the degree to which people within such systems could mobilize women's labor and childbearing capacities. The formation of alliances between lineages was facilitated by marriage. This does not mean that women were simply pawns. In a good number of times and locations women such as Queen Nzinga, the seventeenth-century Mbundu monarch (Miller, 1975:201-216), or the Luso-African woman in the Upper Guinea Coast (Brooks, 2003) controlled many resources and could operate almost independently of their husbands' lineage. Quite often though, especially where cattle keeping, almost always a male-dominated activity, was important, women had much of the crop-producing burdens as well as household and child-rearing duties. When colonial labor demands removed men even farther from household economies, this imbalance was often made worse (Coquery-Vidrovitch, 1997; 9-20).

For those accustomed to state forms of organization, African social organization based on kindship seems chaotic, and nonstate societies are seen as less civilized or lacking in sociopolitical development. To dispel the notion that Africa lacked civilization, many dedicated Africanists have focused almost exclusively on the relatively unrepresentative centralized states when portraying Africa's past. This has sometimes obscured, however, the important role of local kinship relations in maintaining peace and harmony in most African societies. But since state societies as well as non-state societies have a long history in Africa, I examine the significance of state societies in the history of Africa next.

I think the text is pretty self explanatory, and does a better job in probably a similar amount of words as I would have used, to explain that African tribal communities were fundamentally decentralized, without a central authority or entity with a monopoly on power, which contained checks and balances and local representative elections, with most political and economic decisions that impacted a community being made locally, by perceived elders of the community. You really can't get more anarchistic and democratic than that.

Added: One more point. The concepts of anarchy as it is understood academically today began in the realm of Communist thought, the anarcho-syndicalists, and was always about a bottom up form of democractically run economy and political organization. It never implied a total lack of government. Communism is, as they say, merely the democratization of the economy. So, fundamentally, the idea that Anarchy is undemocratic ignores both the real observable evidence, and the foundational ideology for the concept. The Spanish Anarcho-Syndicalists who were decimated by Franco's forces, were most assuredly democratic in nature, and so we can say that this type of decentralized governing system is not unique to African society, or pre Industrialization.

Added: I lied, one more point, but its actually two.

1. Its not a retreat into jargon. The definition of terms is malleable but the social sciences community uses these terms very specifically, as most sciences tend to do (having specific definitions for terms). We wouldn't argue that the definition for theory in scientific circles is far more precise and specific than the generalized layman's concept of theory, we should therefore not make the same mistake of placing layman's definitions for very specific intellectual concepts as accepted in the social sciences ahead of those the social sciences have defined them as. Hope that makes sense. The end of that sentence feels like its worded more obtusely than it should be, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

2. I'm not talking archaeological research here, the study and interpretation of artifacts. That is part of the story, but a very small part for cultures which had no written language, and typically did not build monuments or really anything that lasts much beyond a few years. Aka societies without a material record. This knowledge is the result of emic oriented participant observation ethnography. Aka, personally living amongst a group of people, and experiencing life from their perspective to the greatest extent possible. Learning their language, living as they live, engaging in their rituals, speaking to them to get clarification for concepts, practices and ideas which are strange, or alien, to the ethnographer. This is a very important distinction to make clear.
 
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Instead of just guessing or being limited to the current shitty US political parties, take this quiz and compare your political views on a world scale to famous (and infamous) world leaders:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

My results are centrist libertarian. The print page is .php but you can link it with with "img" "/img" tags:

pcgraphpng.php


Here's something to compare your results to:

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