Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

TheBeagle

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Lol, we haven't even fully explored our moon yet. That perfectly explains why we haven't encountered any Von Neumann probes. Do you think if something the size of a pick-up truck is parked somewhere in our solar system observing us that we would have found it by now? Nope.
 

mkopec

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I personally think that intelligence is just that rare. Its probably rare as fuck to find a planet suitable for life as it is, then add the chances that intelligence springs up from primordial soup and the extinction level events that happen on probably every planet which is suitable every few million years, were like a uniquelegendaryamidst common as hellgrayvendor trash. Plus what are the chances of us surviving a million years let alone another 10,000? Between us wanting to kill each other, us fucking up our eden, our slow ass space travel advancement, I dont even give us another 10K years and we will be gone. Just like that, a blink of an eye in terms of the billions of years the universe has been around and another few billion it has left.
 

TheBeagle

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How do you guys know this stuff about radio transmissions? Maybe you should call Harvard and Berkeley and let them know to stop their SETI programs since you seem to know something that they don't?
You realize that the modern day version of SETI is mostly focused on looking for exoplanets and not looking for the alien version of All in the Family right? It's also always been a non-profit that takes in no govt. funds so it was able to pursue whatever goofy, headline grabbing goals that it wanted.
 

iannis

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I forget who said it, lots of people I'm sure, but one of the best arguments against ETI is just the fact that we haven't encountered it yet.

And that's not a circular definition.Ifit is possible, andifit were stable, andifit preceded us, andifit were more "powerful" than us, andifit were interested in ETI itself, we would have seen indications of it. All of those ifs are sort of required. I mean if we find some voodoo-pigs that'll be interesting but who really gives a shit.

So while it is highly likely that ETL does exist the likelyhood of a stable, more advanced ETI is remote. If there is an advanced ETI out there to find it is going to look like nothing anyone has ever managed to imagine. And will we even know it when we see it.
 

Aaron

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Shouldn't we be spending money trying to find signs of intelligent life onthisplanet first?

OK jokes aside, I have formed the opinion that life, in it's most prime form (single celled organisms, bacteria etc.) are probably common. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we will have found independently formed (that is, not originating on Earth) life in a number of places in our solar system, most notably Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Europa, Saturn and Titan. Possibly even the other two gas giants and some of the moons. More complex life is probably far rarer. Life forms such as plants and insects might occur from time to time, but when you get to a human type form of intelligence and self awareness then I start to wonder if we aren't the only show in town. Though, if we ever do find or meet another race then I'll jump for joy.

Oh, and inspite of being so sceptical about finding intelligent life I do have[email protected]/* <![CDATA[ */!function(t,e,r,n,c,a,p){try{t=document.currentScript||function(){for(t=document.getElementsByTagName('script'),e=t.length;e--;)if(t[e].getAttribute('data-cfhash'))return t[e]}();if(t&&(c=t.previousSibling)){p=t.parentNode;if(a=c.getAttribute('data-cfemail')){for(e='',r='0x'+a.substr(0,2)|0,n=2;a.length-n;n+=2)e+='%'+('0'+('0x'+a.substr(n,2)^r).toString(16)).slice(-2);p.replaceChild(document.createTextNode(decodeURIComponent(e)),c)}p.removeChild(t)}}catch(u){}}()/* ]]> */on my home computer, though I have for a long time wondered if that isn't just an NSA front to crowd-compute the hacking of strong government encryptions lol.
 

Aaron

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Oh, and after having read Iannis's post, there will always have to be a first when it comes to a stable ETI, but what if we are them? Our civilisation may live 100k years before we implode and we'll still be the only ones out there, then a million years from now some green ape like beings on Alpha Centuri first venture out into the stars and find the remains of our civilisation.
 

iannis

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Well, if we're first, that means that we're first and the likelihood of finding another ETI is vanishingly small. Its not my argument. I only find it persuasive.

My personal thought is that the universe is inconcievably large, and we can't even see the entire thing. We're limited by the horizon created by the speed of light. Even should FTL travel be possible, and even should it be practical in some magic future tech way, when you divide a bounded infinity by half you are left with a bounded infinity. Life would have to be absurdly common for our intelligence to ever make meaningful contact with The Other. But that's not an argument, that's just a guess and an opinion.
 

Lithose

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How do you guys know this stuff about radio transmissions? Maybe you should call Harvard and Berkeley and let them know to stop their SETI programs since you seem to know something that they don't?
As Beagle said, there is a reason why government backed SETI programs were axed.ModernSETI is alsovastlydifferent from the circa 70's Sagan Seti which had hopes of tuning into an aliens dinner TV program. Modern SETI mostly helps, and uses, our planet search; when planets have been identified, the SETI guys look for signalsspecificallyfrom that direction. If someone were out there, and that someone didintentionallysend a signal to us; IF we were listening, wemightjust hear it (But, as Beagle said with Voyager, knowing precisely where to look, and having someone focus the signal at you? Is important.). Which is why Keppler is such a big deal; so we can actually point our devices at that specific area where a planet in the Goldilocks zone might be.

But again, that is posited on someoneintentionallysending us a signal. Picking up just random radio waves from communication? It would be like trying to tap out a morse code signal on Lake Michigan and having someone else read it from the opposite side. I won't say it could "never" happen, because who knows, but given our technology? Probably not. So even if the universe was flooded with aliens watching TV, we'd never know about it (Which is what Big P asked)....Again though, if someone beamed a signal right at us, and we had large facilities specifically listening--maybe.

I just always assumed that seeing as how we can still communicate with the voyager probes with their pretty low power radios that some high power transmissions would at least be discernible from the background noise.
As Beag said, having precise knowledge of where the signal will come from, and honing in given that knowledge changes a lot. Also though; the distances we are talking, are extremely different.

Voyager Distance: 19,113,200,000 KM (Rounded)

Proxima Centauri (Closest star): 39,900,000,000,000

Almost 2100 times the distance.
 

Chanur

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I personally think the answer is to sell the American public or the world on the idea of Manifest Destiny. Call it conceit but I feel mankind's destiny and only chance at salvation is exploring the galaxy/universe and we need to beat that idea into everyone.
 

BrutulTM

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Detecting alien radio broadcasts is impossible.

Then why are scientists trying to do it?

Because it's possible.

Thanks internet!
 

Tuco

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I've always thought of ETI being inevitable in worlds that support life. Yeah the path that we took is a specific path, but so would any other. There's just so much room in any biome for increasingly intelligent life...

To me it's not a question of whether it exists, but whether it is able to develop the technology to colonize before some catastrophic failure. Our universe is bounded by some set of rules that allows phenomena like combustion, does it also allow for inexpensive manipulation of gravity? Or post-rocket propulsion? Or faster than light travel? If the answer is no, then there's no surprise we haven't seen any ETI.
 

Lithose

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Detecting alien radio broadcasts is impossible.

Then why are scientists trying to do it?

Because it's possible.

Thanks internet!
It's not the rest of our faults you can't follow a conversation. Here is the original post.

I dunno, seems to be intelligent life is pretty god damn rare. How manyanomalous radio signals have we found anywhere in the universe? I would think if there are other intelligent beings out there or have ever been out there we couldeasilyknow of their existence by theirradio communication.

Though I seriously whenever we finally get around to really exploring Mars or Europa/Enceledus we find at least fossils of bacteria or something. Something to cause the religions to implode on themselves.
He asked why we can'teasilyknow of their radiocommunication, as in, why we haven't detected the large amount of radio communication a sufficiently advanced society would throw out. I responded that due to the inverse square law,suchcommunications would not be detectable. As in signals used forstandard communication on a planet. This is the only type of communication that there is enough of, to be "easily" detectable (As in the universe would be awash in it)ifwe COULD detect it, but we can't.

The only wayANYcommunication would be detectable would be if it were aimeddirectlyat us, with enough energy to communicate with us (Which, as you can see, the universe wouldn't exactly be awash in). And the only way we would "hear" that is if we had a radio-scope pointedDIRECTLYat the area where it emanated from. This is not "easy", at all, it's not something that we could pick up without the aliens specificallywantingto communicate with us. Hence why, as we explained, there could be millions of civilizations out there spilling radio waves into the space, and we'd never know--which is why it's possible we've never heard an "anomalous" signal before, even if I Love Alien Lucy is playing on a thousand worlds; because listening for it isNOT easy. Which is why your statement about "BUT SETI AT BERKLEY??!!!" had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation. Nothing those SETI programs are doing is easy; it requires the coordination of orbital satellites, and various computers, in order to detect planets, that have only become available very recently. And even then, it STILL requires an alien race with sufficient advancement to SEND us a signal (And a hail mary signal at that).

So, the only communication with thequantityto be "easily" seen--standard planetary communication (As in, Contact showing the Olympic games--which was stated in the original posts)--canNOTbe heard by us. However, what CAN be heard by us, is EXTREMELY difficult to find, and requires cooperation of an alien race that wouldn't even know we existed and was only sending something because they knew a planet, capable of supporting water, existed in this area.
 

reavor

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Plus what are the chances of us surviving a million years let alone another 10,000? Between us wanting to kill each other, us fucking up our eden, our slow ass space travel advancement, I dont even give us another 10K years and we will be gone. Just like that, a blink of an eye in terms of the billions of years the universe has been around and another few billion it has left.
I think this is the depressing reality of it all. Intelligence might have arisen many times at many places during the long age of our galaxy, but no-one ever makes it to a galaxy-spanning space empire, because they all inevitably wipe themselves out.
 

TheBeagle

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This is what happens when people only get their science from TV and movies. Hell, just having a subscription to Discover and Omni (lol) as a kid was enough for me to be able to distinguish science fact from science fiction.

I thought the whole, SETI as a scientific 'publicity stunt' in the 70's to capitalize on the public's new found fascination with space, was commonly known by now. Guess not.
 

iannis

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I think this is the depressing reality of it all. Intelligence might have arisen many times at many places during the long age of our galaxy, but no-one ever makes it to a galaxy-spanning space empire, because they all inevitably wipe themselves out.
Or reach an equilibrium which does not require imperialism.

Same thought, less bleak.
 

Cad

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I can confirm that intelligence is rare even on planets like Earth where intelligence is supposedly abundant. Exhibit A: This forum.
 

The Ancient_sl

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Our universe is bounded by some set of rules that allows phenomena like combustion, does it also allow for inexpensive manipulation of gravity? Or post-rocket propulsion? Or faster than light travel? If the answer is no, then there's no surprise we haven't seen any ETI.
It seems to me that most scientific breakthroughs are often hinted at ahead of time. Observable phenomenon which are currently unexplained hinting at an answer that lies ahead. Is thereanythingsuggesting that something can travel Faster Than Light or is it just our desperate hope?
 

TheBeagle

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Inflation during the first few nanoseconds of the Big Bang, energy traveled faster than light before it coalesced into matter and since E=mc^2, energy and matter are interchangeable so there's one hint. Another hint might be quantum entanglement in which information is able to move faster than the speed of light. And then of course there's always the big question of wtf happens past the event horizon of a black hole.