Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

Furry

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Closing things simultaneously a particle scale seems like it would fall under an uncertainty principle.
Its an irony I've pointed out before. Managing to close the loopholes and prove quantum entanglement disproves core concepts of quantum mechanics at a whole. Bells equation is basically a giant hilarious mathematical trap, and that's not even getting into the fact that its warrants are almost impossible to satisfy in the real world. That said, I doubt ambiturner even understands the concept of logical warrants, yet alone how to scientifically apply them; and then he's going to claim I don't know what I'm talking about in this case without giving justification or reason for his stance other than the simple belief that I couldn't possibly be right.

So I ask a simple question of you, are there more than two loopholes to the bell inequality as applied to reality? Does this paper only justify the closing of two (I cede without evaluating the merit of such claims that they are correct). Both of these statements are fact, yet they claim in their paper their experiment is loophole free. This paper is basically the clickbait of science without much weight or merit behind it at all. It is simply not worthy of any critical thought.
 

Cad

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Once again, I don't know the science well enough to know if Furry is full of shit, but he's a crackpot on other topics, so I'll assume he's a crackpot here too. However, I have no idea, so I'm conflicted.

Anybody else with a clue want to weigh in?
 

khalid

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Once again, I don't know the science well enough to know if Furry is full of shit, but he's a crackpot on other topics, so I'll assume he's a crackpot here too. However, I have no idea, so I'm conflicted.

Anybody else with a clue want to weigh in?
Well, I am not a physicist. However, his comments about negative and complex numbers were pure quackery. Take that as another datapoint if you will.
 

Palum

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Once again, I don't know the science well enough to know if Furry is full of shit, but he's a crackpot on other topics, so I'll assume he's a crackpot here too. However, I have no idea, so I'm conflicted.

Anybody else with a clue want to weigh in?
I thought if hefeelswrong that is enough now?
 

Running Dog_sl

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Once again, I don't know the science well enough to know if Furry is full of shit, but he's a crackpot on other topics, so I'll assume he's a crackpot here too. However, I have no idea, so I'm conflicted.

Anybody else with a clue want to weigh in?
?I wouldn?t be surprised if in the next few years we see one of the authors of this paper, along with some of the older experiments, Aspect?s and others, named on a Nobel prize,? says Matthew Leifer, a quantum physicist at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Canada. ?It?s that exciting.?
Quantum 'spookiness' passes toughest test yet : Nature News Comment
 

Picasso3

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Once again, I don't know the science well enough to know if Furry is full of shit, but he's a crackpot on other topics, so I'll assume he's a crackpot here too. However, I have no idea, so I'm conflicted.

Anybody else with a clue want to weigh in?
Do NOT use Furrys interpretations to build any timemachines, black holes, or warp drives.
 

Furry

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The guy who made the discovery that 'proved' gravitational waves got a nobel prize. Then it turns out that we have all but scientifically eliminated the chance that gravity waves exist in the past few years. If there isn't a direct observation of one within 3-4 years, they're pretty much bunk science. There have been some questionable nobel prizes, but I'm pretty sure that will be the first one awarded on science that turned out to be verifiably wrong, without doing any real research into the subject.

I think QE is a load of scientific crap, and this paper hasn't even undergone critical review to its veracity. So he's probably right, they are probably nominating that shit for a nobel prize as we speak. Hell, i bet its in their text books as fact already too.
 

Asshat wormie

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Personally I think Furry should get a nobel prize for discovering that negative numbers do not apply to physics. Such a monumental discovery!
 

Ambiturner

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Once again, I don't know the science well enough to know if Furry is full of shit, but he's a crackpot on other topics, so I'll assume he's a crackpot here too. However, I have no idea, so I'm conflicted.

Anybody else with a clue want to weigh in?
He doesn't believe in General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics. That alone should tell you not to listen to him in any science discussion. The way he talks about gravitational waves makes it seem like he just grabs different parts of things he hears and randomly puts them together. Gravitational waves are not on the verge of being disproven as he oddly claims.

As for this case, he's not understanding the experiment or what it was meant to accomplish
 

Furry

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He doesn't believe in General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics.
Completely wrong. I have explained before that there are some sections of these theories which are very good and some which are unproven. If you wish to know which I believe in and which I don't, a simple amount of research into the subjects will show you which have been observationally proven, and which are not.

Take general relativity. Most of it is observationally verified and is good science, but the gravitational parts are not verified, and I shall remain staunchly critical of them until they are. Of course, you read in popular mechanics that some scientist is 'working on it' and triumphantly post these shitty papers without any merit to somehow claim that it is thus proven because you want it to be. Science doesn't work that way yet, even if SJW millenial types such as hojd are trying their hardest to chip away at the foundation of reason.
 

Ambiturner

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While I respect that fact that you're trying to summon hodj here for no apparent reason, your idea that the "gravitational parts" haven't been verified is laughable. You've also said you don't believe in the speed of light.

So if you don't believe general relativity when it comes to gravity or the speed of light, what parts do you believe?
 

malaki_sl

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Hi Furry, to answer your question, yes there are only two loopholes that can preserve a local, realist interpretation of reality in the face of violation of Bell's inequality. Those are locality and fair sampling, both were closed. Freedom-of-choice is the mega-loophole, but it can't be scientifically disproven so it's pretty useless to think about. So basically on this evidence, either we don't have freedom of choice, reality is non-local (causality can be violated), or objects are not well-defined at all times but instead exist in superpositions/have fundamental uncertainty as described by QM.

Closing two loopholes, even if you think there are more (please point out what they are), is significant, as nobody has closed both simultaneously before. Many many groups have been trying for years. It's ridiculous for you to dismiss out of hand.

I guarantee that this paper will pass peer review, they did this exact experiment a year or two ago just in one lab at 3m distance instead of two labs at 1.3km and so the physics is well understood. The only quibble is that it's only a two-sigma result, maybe they will require them to average it for another month before it's accepted (which they will have time to do as it goes through the process). Some relatively simple optical engineering should boost the rates observed by 4 orders of magnitude or so as well.
 

Furry

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Freedom-of-choice is the mega-loophole, but it can't be scientifically disproven so it's pretty useless to think about.
Well we can't close the loophole, so therefor I think it just shouldn't exist! I mean, its just so damn inconvenient!!!!!!!

That's some hardcore legitimate science there.
 

Ambiturner

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Well we can't close the loophole, so therefor I think it just shouldn't exist! I mean, its just so damn inconvenient!!!!!!!

That's some hardcore legitimate science there.
Are you serious about this shit? You can use a similar type of argument against any scientific theory.
 

Furry

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Are you serious about this shit? You can use a similar type of argument against any scientific theory.
At least you're adorable to talk to on a scientifically ignorant level. No you can't. A theory makes a claim, then a theory has to scientifically prove said claim. Lets say I claim that two houses are 50 feet apart. Then I show with measurements that they are 50 feet apart. I have justified my own theory with observational evidence. Someone else comes and measures they are feet apart, they have corroborated it, the experiment must be repeatable. If I and others repeatedly measure fifty feet apart, then it becomes accepted that they actually are fifty feet apart.

A more complex example is the claim in general relativity that the time clocks move at is effected by intensity of gravitational field. Someone said all we have to do to test this is put clocks at different altitudes and see if they remain synchronized. Write down some numbers, they verified their own theory. Other people came along, and verified the results and confirmed that the effect happens to an extent that passes scientific scrutiny: It is incredibly consistent, predictable and measurable. If you want to challenge this theory rationally, you have to find and inconsistency first.

Now lets move on to QE. The loopholes exist because the theory is a mathematical construct. Basically, all the loopholes have to be satisfied, even the really really hard ones or the experimentcould be measuring nothing at all. If you don't satisfy the loopholes before conducting your experiment, its the equivalent of trying to measure the distance between to houses by saying "fuck it, we got 50 feet right here" and measuring that. Consider me a pedant all you want, but I will not accept the scientific veracity of an experiment which does not even test against what the theory that made it requires it to test against. Perhaps you can rewrite the theory to fit your test and it'll be worth the time of day.

I hope that answers your question, I tried to be as basic as possible. This doesn't even touch the fact of how fucked up bell's theorums warrants are, how fucked up it is to use light to test against reality when the formula requires something that logically adds up to one, and the only thing we were certain about with light before the invention of it was that it didn't add up to one, and the nature of light was one of the longest standing debates in physics. How fucking convenient.
 

malaki_sl

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Well, obviously you don't understand what 'loophole' means in this context. Let's go with your looking-at-houses example. You look at a house, then look at another house, and sure enough they are 50 ft apart. You do this a bunch of times, people come in and verify it, that's all well and good. As you said, it becomes accepted that the houses are 50 feet apart and that's good enough for you.

*But you didn't actually close any loopholes!* What if looking at the first house makes the second house move to its current location? You only see it at one point in time, maybe the houses are communicating to each other so that when you see one house in one spot, the other 'knows' where to be. Or, since you aren't the only one who ever looks at these houses, maybe the times you (and your collaborators) looked they were 50 ft apart, but the passersby, who you didn't ask, see them as 20 feet apart! Basically you just got lucky, every time.

Or, the mega-loophole, maybe when you see a house your brain is tricked into thinking that the next house is 50 feet away, that is to say that looking at this particular set of houses interferes with your freedom to choose your future actions. You can maybe see why it's literally impossible to close this loophole.

The way this works is that people see the houses (observe non-classical correlations), propose superpositions/quantum mechanics as a model for why this occurs, and then other people say AHA! but it could also be that there are other properties that we don't observe which make these things happen! Those are the loopholes, the things that make alternate theories possible. It is not in any way a basic problem with the measurement, its ability to predict, or to be verified.

Again, it is not possible, in any way whatsoever, that the 'experiment is measuring nothing'. It is possible that the experimental results can be explained by a non-QM theory ... unless you close the loopholes on which other theories rely. So now we're down to QM or theories where you lose freedom of choice.

This shit about 'light adding up to one' and how it's nonsense to 'use light to test reality' is complete gibberish. This experiment measured electrons btw, if that helps you sleep at night, and entanglement has been shown to exist with pretty much every natural quantum including photons, electrons, neutrons, protons, vibrational modes of crystals, you name it.

edit: Entanglement is in no way 'just a mathematical construct'. It describes why, if I take two photons prepared in a certain way, that if I measure their polarizations independently they agree, and also if I take one photon of the pair, flip it's polarization, and measure, the polarizations of the pair still match. It is impossible classically, where photons have a definite polarization at all times. QM puts a mathematical framework around this phenomenon and makes predictions, but the observation is as real as your houses. I don't know what more you want from a scientific theory.
 

Asshat wormie

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Malaki just an FYI. You are arguing with a guy who thinks negative numbers should not be used in physics because they do not exist in nature.