Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

hodj

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People are not required to take a position in a debate in order to assert that they don't believe your unsupported positive claim. Trying to force someone to take a position in order to defend your position is dishonest and disingenuous.

And the argument was fallacious, and I demonstrated that.

You can't seem to get it through your head, I don't know why.

It is not pedantic to point out that you've made a fallacious argument and have not supported it with evidence. That is fundamental to debate, especially rational debate. Your content is bad if it is founded on bad reasoning, and there's no reason to argue it without some positive evidence to justify your claim is made.

As has also been pointed out, no one is claiming negative mass exists in an absolute way, only that using the concept in theoretical physics is useful. Negative mass in functional physics is always in relation to another object. In theoretical physics it can be used to model things like what happens to mass as it is pulled into a black hole, or pops in and out of what we perceive as existence.

Also negative mass goes against the concept of gravity, where objects with mass pull TOWARDS each other.
This demonstrates you don't know what negative mass in functional physics is. It is used to describe masses moving away from each other. This concept is also used in chemistry to describe differentials in energy in terms of positive and negative electric charges.

No one claims negative mass in functional physics is a lack of atoms. It is the action of mass moving away from another object, hence it is relative. This is the type of negative mass furry accepts.

The issue is that he claims that because negative mass in theoretical physics isn't demonstrated to be true in functional physics, its irrational to use it in theoretical physics. This is because he continues to fail to grasp that these types of concepts are being used to determine potential validity of a hypothesis, not being taken as true and real values.
 

Sentagur

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Negative mass is just a hypothetical concept and i have not seen anyone actually claim that it exists in nature. AS far as i know its only used to do some fancy theoretical math in some hypotheses that are being explored.
I am not sure why people are having problems with it. Yes its counter intuitive but so are many other things in physics and math at that level. Most of the confusion seems to stem from the use of the word theory in science sense and colloquial sense.

At this point, peasants have hijacked the word and it might just be simpler if the science community just comes up with a new word that doesn't have any baggage attached.
 

Furry

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I haven't bothered to correct people who think I'm using theory wrong when I talk about mathematical constructs because its not worth the effort. I agree not many actual scientists think these things translate to the real world, but people on these forums fall for the traps of believing math based on these things has any real world meaning at all, so I feel the need to call it out as bs.
 

hodj

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I haven't bothered to correct people who think I'm using theory wrong when I talk about mathematical constructs because its not worth the effort. I agree not many actual scientists think these things translate to the real world, but people on these forums fall for the traps of believing math based on these things has any real world meaning at all, so I feel the need to call it out as bs.
You did use the word theory wrong, that's demonstrable, and the second part of this post is a strawman.

Can you cite us some of these supposed people you think believe all mathematical models of theoretical physics are absolutely descriptive of reality as it actually exists?

Because I'm unaware of anyone who has ever made this claim.
 

Ambiturner

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If I can add to that, I think Furry has been pretty clear about it. He believes in QM, but thinks a lot of physicists overstate the applications or function of QM in many fields, ex: QE and intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent what is happening in QE experiments.
It's not just QM. He's also stated he believes in General Relativity except for the parts about light and gravity.

Those aren't 2 aspects you can just disregard and expect the rest of the theory to make sense.
 

Furry

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It's not just QM. He's also stated he believes in General Relativity except for the parts about light and gravity.

Those aren't 2 aspects you can just disregard and expect the rest of the theory to make sense.
Quantum mechanics requires FTL action to work. That's the main reason einstein thought the theory didn't accurately represent reality. Sure it works as a mathematical model, but its wise to question that anything FTL is happening until we actually detect and observe FTL actions.

It's also why QE exists. Basically they're trying really hard to detect/observe this FTL action to show that the mathematical model isn't just an estimation of reality, but actually how reality works.
 

Ambiturner

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Quantum mechanics requires FTL action to work. That's the main reason einstein thought the theory didn't accurately represent reality. Sure it works as a mathematical model, but its wise to question that anything FTL is happening until we actually detect and observe FTL actions.

It's also why QE exists. Basically they're trying really hard to detect/observe this FTL action to show that the mathematical model isn't just an estimation of reality, but actually how reality works.
I'm referencing the fact that you don't believe in gravitational waves and the wacky beliefs you have about light and its speed.
 

Ryan

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Quantum mechanics requires FTL action to work. That's the main reason einstein thought the theory didn't accurately represent reality. Sure it works as a mathematical model, but its wise to question that anything FTL is happening until we actually detect and observe FTL actions.

It's also why QE exists. Basically they're trying really hard to detect/observe this FTL action to show that the mathematical model isn't just an estimation of reality, but actually how reality works.
In what way does quantum mechanics require FTL action?
 

Troll_sl

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It requiresinstantaneousaction. This is can be interpereted by the layman as FTL, but is, in fact, completely different within the framework of physics.
 

Ryan

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Hm, well I just had never heard of any FTL requirement before, other than in regards to wave function collapse added in by some QM interpretations.
 

Ambiturner

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Hm, well I just had never heard of any FTL requirement before, other than in regards to wave function collapse added in by some QM interpretations.
Because there isn't and he doesn't really know what he's talking about. He just likes to go against what's commonly accepted like a science hipster
 

Furry

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Because there isn't and he doesn't really know what he's talking about. He just likes to go against what's commonly accepted like a science hipster
I don't believe in theories that haven't been rigorously observationally verified/tested. I know some people like to get on the band wagon and say GRAVITY WAVES ARE REAL!!! just because some guy got slapped a nobel prize on his desk for observing some pulsars and then writing a formula that makes their gravity waves match the decay the two pulsars showed, thus 'proving the gravity waves.'

This test of gravity waves sucks for a number of reasons: First and foremost, we don't know real well about how pulsars work, secondly: because of the first, some of the factors of the orbital mechanics of that system are guesswork, third: because of the first two, its impossible to know, or calculate for the mechanical orbital decay that the system would have. It could be extreme enough to account for all observed decay, it could be inconsequential, but this mechanical orbital decay happens with all systems, but especially more extreme systems and was not factored into the calculations that won this nobel prize at all, go read the math.

So a much better proof of gravity waves would be detecting them directly. We have the ability to do it and have built the machines to do it... and silence. Gravity waves should have been detected by now but have definitely not been detected. I'll write them down as true when that fact changes.
 

Cad

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I don't believe in theories that haven't been rigorously observationally verified/tested. I know some people like to get on the band wagon and say GRAVITY WAVES ARE REAL!!! just because some guy got slapped a nobel prize on his desk for observing some pulsars and then writing a formula that makes their gravity waves match the decay the two pulsars showed, thus 'proving the gravity waves.'

So a much better proof of gravity waves would be detecting them directly. We have the ability to do it and have built the machines to do it... and silence. Gravity waves should have been detected by now but have definitely not been detected. I'll write them down as true when that fact changes.
If everything Furry typed here is true, then I agree with him. Is what he typed true or is Furry gonna Furry?
 

Ambiturner

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I don't believe in theories that haven't been rigorously observationally verified/tested.
Very few theories have been tested/observed more than General Relativity. You can't just remove this aspect from the theory and leave everything else unchanged.

Also, the idea that the orbital decay of binary pulsars exactly matching relativity due to some mysterious unknown property of pulsars is ridiculous. Just like your claim that experiments involving QE are invalid unless they close the freedom-of-choice loophole.

No scientific theories should be accepted unless they can prove 100% that we are not in the matrix.
 

Ambiturner

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If everything Furry typed here is true, then I agree with him. Is what he typed true or is Furry gonna Furry?
The only thing that's true about what he said is that they haven't been directly detected.

The idea that we definitely have the ability to detect them is not true. They are really really really hard to detect and may never be directly detected. That is in no way inconsistent with what we expect them to be. The indirect evidence we have is extremely strong and is at the point where NOT believing in them is ridiculous. They are a fundamental aspect of General Relativity and aren't something you can just disregard without serious changes to everything we think we know
 

Cad

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The only thing that's true about what he said is that they haven't been directly detected.

The idea that we definitely have the ability to detect them is not true. They are really really really hard to detect and may never be directly detected. That is in no way inconsistent with what we expect them to be. The indirect evidence we have is extremely strong and is at the point where NOT believing in them is ridiculous. They are a fundamental aspect of General Relativity and aren't something you can just disregard without serious changes to everything we think we know
Yea it was mainly the "we should have detected them by now but have not" part.