Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

LachiusTZ

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Nah, the universe expands by creating units of distance, not by increasing the distance within points, right? (And that might be where I am off). It doesn't seem like, if it is creating distance within the units, it would be faster than the speed of light since light covers C and C units is C units.

Alright, so if a wave is crossing vast distances, wouldn't there be units created during the trip? Have an effect of the wave being on a treadmill?

Or is the amount of distance created so minuscule it is of no concern? Because you have a known rate if growth that should be part of an object moving, a given. When what you are observing is the flexing of space time, should the waves not slow down or increase in amplitude the farther they travel due to expansion?
 

Ambiturner

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I think you're asking something of the effect of, could the gravity waves hitch a ride on spacetime expansion making it move faster/slower?

Unfortunately, no. the first problem is that spacetime expansion isn't the same as motion. Also, the speed would be constant throughout the whole trip no matter what spacetime. So while it can take longer due to the expansion, the actual velocity (distance/time) isn't changing since the distance portion is increasing with the time portion.

I'm not 100% if I'm following your first sentence, but increasing the distance within points might be a better way to think about it.
 

LachiusTZ

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Yeah, take longer die to expansion is what I was getting at. Why I used speed but said that is not the right word and rephrased to time between points.

It's not the same as motion, does that mean it wouldn't effect it?

Would it effect the amplitude of the wave?

Responding to this on a phone is more of a handicap than I expected. Lol
 

Ambiturner

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Correct, it wouldn't effect it.

The wave would be chugging along at c while spacetime is doing it's own thing. It may appear to travel slower due to distance increasing, butlocallythe speed never changes.

Another thing about expansion (speed) that it is directly related to the distance between two objects. So the further away two galaxies are, for instance, the faster they will appear be moving away from each other. So the wave may appear to be going slower initially due to the expansion, the closer the wave gets to the observer, the more that appearance would diminish. There's no way you'd be able to observe the wave as anything other than what it is locally.

It's late and I'm on sleep meds so no idea if that made any sense or not or if it's even what you asked.
 
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I accept science for what it is. I claimed before this was not proven, which was true. Now that there is some observational evidence, I will consider it likely. As with all new theories posted here, I will wait till the experiment is reproduced and verified at another site, to eliminate possible systematic errors *(Such as in the case of neutrinos breaking the speed of light) before considering it fully observationally verified. Since the cite in italy is comparable and capable of verifying this one, all we need do is wait.

My stance is exactly where it started, that observational data is king. You clowns feel free to speculate outside of science, I won't.

Edit, let me add additionally that the experiment in question is sound. If they didn't mess up severely, they did discover something. This is a very different beast from the attempts to obscure loopholes in quantum mechanics that I find so scientifically objectionable.
You are a dumbass who was wrong. So sit there in your wrongness and know you were and continue to be wrong. You said there are many different "parts to Relativity". You are wrong. There are einsteins field equations which define the entire theory, from which you can derive simplifications that predict many things that have been observed: black holes, time dilation, gravity waves. Every new observation just further confirms his field equations are correct.
 
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The effect of gravity still occurs at infinite speed in relativity, the only thing limited by the speed of light is essentially the propagation of changes in the field. Gravity itself being entirely limited by the speed of light is absurd and doesn't work at all on even the most basic scientific level.
Shit you are dumb. How is it so possible to be so stupid when the answers are only a google or wiki click away?
 

Furry

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There are still parts to relativity. One theory can't be simply accepted when another theory is proven because it is similar and in some way connected. Each part of the theory must be scientifically verified. The entire existence of this experiment is counter to your logic and explanation. Why is this one part of relativity being tested specifically, if we must simply assume it is true because time dilation is true.

I believe in the scientific method, I believe in observation. If this experiment is verifiable and repeatable, then it is true and only then. Its you clowns that are saying shit like we already knew this was true because some old guy imagined it. I can't believe you turds think that is science, or are somehow trying to say you were right when my stance from the beginning has been "I will wait for real data". Now that there is some data, I have formed an opinion, as promised. My opinion on the subject has swayed some, but my stance on how I look at it is completely unchanged from the beginning.
 

Ambiturner

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In other news, were close to finally disproving the shitty gravitational theories in general relativity.Upgraded LIGO will begin hunt for gravitational waves soon - physicsworld.com
The guy who made the discovery that 'proved' gravitational waves got a nobel prize. Then it turns out that we have all but scientifically eliminated the chance that gravity waves exist in the past few years.
The only reason the machines wouldn't work is either A: the theory is wrong, or B: No natural events that are detectable have occurred. Do you have an alternative explanation? Almost every scientist agrees the machine should work according to theory. So do you think they just fucked up? What possible alternative explanation do you have that isn't quackery.
The funny thing is, There literally is no examples of anything except gravity being 100% instantaneous action in observed science. It is always calculated in applied math as instantaneous action. The existence of gravity waves is a huge mathematical mess where gravity is allowed to act instantly, but the propagation of new information of its strength is limited to the speed of light. It requires some strange logical mind bending, like the acceptance that gravity itself is a field that permeates all of space, rather than a force that is emitted from sources. It leads to lots of strange logical problems in accepting how it works, such as the field itself is required to known in advance where the body it is following is going, which in essence is an attempt to hide the FTL force of gravity from laymen mathematicians, but it does work mathematically.

To me, the gravity part of General relativity is silly, but its not nearly as fundamentally broken at every level as QE is.
You've been a lot more vocal about believing QE is BS, but don't pretend like your position on gravitational waves was neutral.
 

BrutulTM

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Let's be honest guys, the only reason to be interested in quantum mechanics is to make yourself sound smart around people who don't know anything about quantum mechanics amirite? There is no practical reason to learn about this stuff other than the fact that you like watching people's eyes glaze over when you tell them about Schrodinger's cat.
 
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There are still parts to relativity. One theory can't be simply accepted when another theory is proven because it is similar and in some way connected. Each part of the theory must be scientifically verified. The entire existence of this experiment is counter to your logic and explanation. Why is this one part of relativity being tested specifically, if we must simply assume it is true because time dilation is true.

I believe in the scientific method, I believe in observation. If this experiment is verifiable and repeatable, then it is true and only then. Its you clowns that are saying shit like we already knew this was true because some old guy imagined it. I can't believe you turds think that is science, or are somehow trying to say you were right when my stance from the beginning has been "I will wait for real data". Now that there is some data, I have formed an opinion, as promised. My opinion on the subject has swayed some, but my stance on how I look at it is completely unchanged from the beginning.
Wrong. You are dumb. Stop trying to co-opt and bastardize the scientific method to fit your preconceived notion about how the universe works. Educate yourself, because your breed of stupid is a parasite that infects all of humanity.

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Boom!Einstien's Field Equations (EFE)describe General Relativity in its entirety. From this single equation (which condenses his original 10 equations) you can derive many different solution sets, and hence observable effects. Many of these effects have been directlytested and observed.

Take density to infinity and the limit of gravity approaches infinity as well. We call these objects 'dark stars', or 'black holes'. One of the first solution sets to the EFE found by Karl Schwarzchild predicted black holes. The Schwarzchild radius of black holes is named in his honor. Black holes have been directly observed through their effects on light passing between us and distant stars in the form ofgravitational lensing.

As for the speed of gravity, it was predicted and confirmed to be roughly equivalent to that of light. The LIGO data is just the latest proof of the speed of propagation of gravity. Want one a little closer to home?Here, earth's ocean and terrestrial tides have a phase delay from the bodies that influence them due to a finite speed of propagation.

General relativity is the best system of equations in the history of man that describes all of spacetime on large scales. Everything else is just a simplification. Take those EFE and simplify and you get Newtonian classical mechanics, similar to how in the physics of electromagnetics you can simplifyMaxwell's Equationsdown toOhm's Law.

Ohm's law is an empirical law, a generalization from many experiments that have shown that current is approximately proportional to electric field for most materials. It is less fundamental than Maxwell's equations and is not always obeyed.
The history of science is littered with stories in which we have found the most basic, simplified formulations first. And when we push those formulas to their limit we moved to discover the more fundamental theories that are more encompassing of the observations we find.

So go out and educate yourself. Read abookif you don't like wiki links. And when you're done with that oneread another.

The ultimate quest in all of this is to find the system of equations that unite all the fundamental interactions of the universe:
Strong Theory(described largely by quantum mechanics and currently not at all compatible with Relativity).
Electroweak Theory(union of weak force and electromagnetics)
Gravity (described in the aforementioned General Relativity).

There are candidate theories, the most known by far is String Theory. The main problem it suffers from is at current energy levels it looks like all the existing more simplified independent theories. We need particle acceleratorsorders of magnitude more powerfulto probe and observe effects that would prove it is the more fundamental theory.
 

iannis

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So, gravitons confirmed huh.

If energy is conserved wouldn't that mean that the universe is losing mass while it gains area? Entropic heat death, hell, eventually it'll just be nothing but individual gravitons spaced out too far to interact with each other.
 

LachiusTZ

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Entropic heat death, hell, eventually it'll just be nothing but individual gravitons spaced out too far to interact with each other.
I think that's the new hotness. Black holes evaporate, and space time rips apart. Almost sounds like a big bang...
 

Cad

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Entropic heat death, hell, eventually it'll just be nothing but individual gravitons spaced out too far to interact with each other.
As long as I have a few billion years after they invent anti-senescence to get bored of pussy before the universe ends, I'm cool.
 

LachiusTZ

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Nobody posting the mini brains guy from johns Hopkins?

Tech is a few years old, already been posted?
 

AngryGerbil

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If energy is conserved wouldn't that mean that the universe is losing mass while it gains area?
Mass equals energy. The universe isn't losing mass or energy but rather the mass and energy it already has is simply becoming less ordered and more dilute. There are local regresses of this entropy that result in localities of order, from time to time (including our earth), but ultimately the entropy of it all marches on universally and regardless.