Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I wouldn't classify the randomization in rogue as good.

If we're talking about a game like Star Citizen or Skyrim that people want to play a lot of, even well randomized games like Minecraft's level generation won't offer meaningful content for people after the first few weeks. Games like Diablo (or rogue) use randomization to good effect, but they are mob stomp / item hunt games, not exploration games. The exploration aspect of diablo is pretty much gone after the first time you see each possible node.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
All these promises... sounds like Battlecruiser 3000AD dialled up by a few orders of magnitude.
 

Variise

N00b
497
17
This doesn't happen in video games. I wouldn't expect that sort of dynamic stuff. I have yet to see a game create a world where you have to hunt down "rumors".
Ok let me clarify. What I described is an NPC giving out a unique mission just for you. It may appear for others as well but only from that NPC. If you both run to the same "instance" it's an NPC mission and you can't interact with one another except with those you invite. That way griefing is kept out of it. This is actually an example of a purely PvE mission. There might be similar PvE/PvP missions where you are told pirates are attacking a nearby space lane and asked to intervene. You may not know if those you engage are PCs or NPCs. That's also by design.

Then there are the completely unique missions where it's a one off. Killing a named NPC pirate or a first encounter with a new alien species (it was hinted this may happen way down the line post release) and other similar one offs only one person will ever experience. There are hybrids to that one off experience of course. Mapping jump points and locating worlds. If you don't report it to the authorities you won't get to name it but you can keep it hush hush. Those reported are added to a map that people can choose to purchase or not. That way if you want to explore everything yourself with no care what others may have already seen or not you can do that. That exploration experience is not stolen from you. You have to give it up willingly.

Then there is what you described. A dynamic encounter with a CIG mod playing an NPC. They want that but it won't be that common so don't misunderstand. What I described may seem dynamic only because other games have shit game mechanics. In fact this was already in Privateer way back in the day. You could get missions from the bartender even back then which were unique and often related to your rep or various other status. Same on subsequent Chris Roberts space opera games and it will continue in Star Citizen.

TLDR: It's not a new concept, done before many times before by Chris Roberts in previous space games in single player.
 

Variise

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It's doable, it just sounds better and deeper on paper than ingame. The reality is that you'd enter the docks and cycle through all the quest givers looking for the quests you'd do. You'd spam click through the bartender's bullcrap until you see the quest about going to visit an alien wreckage somewhere.
Not exactly. Chris doesn't want gamey elements like that. The NPC will chat to you and based on various status effects such as your rep, how you respond to them in the conversation etc they may or may not offer you various missions. It's even supposed to be context sensitive to how you look at them (paying attention or not) when they talk to you. Some may be completely unique that you won't ever see again, but others will that I described above, and some still that you can repeat at a later date. It's supposed to be a flowing conversation with a couple of branching options not like Bioware games that Chris feels forces you to go back and re-do everything to explore all options, and not a simple show up and get a mission and be on your way. How you respond will be remembered by the NPC and that interaction sticks with you until you die until you can't come back and have to re-roll a toon or come back with a different one.

So in short conversations with NPCs should have weight more similar to the Witcher series. Once you pick an option or do something.. that's it. I think that gives infinitely more re-playability which is more crucial for an MMO vs a single player game like Mass Effect or Dragon Age.
 

Variise

N00b
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One issue with organic and random content is fairness. A game always being fair and not imposing impossible situations on the player is a major limitation for design. If you look at current games you notice that most of them try to avoid designs that the target audience might perceive as unfair (be that true or not). It's difficult to avoid unfairness in PvP but the studios do have full control over the PvE design and it's been trending towards homogenized, boring, always-the-same all in the pursuit of fairness. Hell Diablo 3 is working on making their game actively less interesting on the level design side of things to make sure everyone can get the same trophy from greater rifts.

As an example for Star Citizen, when it comes to npc pirate attacks on my lightly armed merchant vessel, or encounters in general, I dont only want to experience encounters that are tailored for my ship type to fight through and live (unless I suck). I also want some where I go "fuck get the hell out of here" the moment the pirates warp in, with no thought given to trying to fight. Think of Star Wars, when did Han actually go looking for a space fight? The Falcon was running away in almost every scene it was in. Too much fairness makes for a bland and boring experience.
The CIG devs have talked about this. Long story short is they don't want to clobber you every time you step out of your comfort zone but they also don't want you to walk on a peddle of roses no matter where you go.

The long and short of it currently is that the types of ships, and NPCs on the planets, you run into (and therefore also the difficulty) will largely depend on the planet/system/region security status based on the Economic Model, which dynamic, minus the UEE core planets which will be largely safe due to the insanely high amount of security and military presence almost everywhere. I did say "almost everywhere" as the exception specifically mentioned seedy areas of even core worlds where you can get shady missions and you could potentially run into trouble with hostile NPCs and possibly even PCs. Although PC PvP interaction wasn't nailed down for the core worlds and it's far more likely to be limited to non core world planet locations.

So you will be fairly safe in your beater Aurora putting around near the core worlds like Terra but as you leave the relative safety of UEE controlled space the chance of running into pirates will increase significantly until you enter null space and basically you don't want to be doing that in an Aurora unless you like referring to it the flying coffin. It doesn't mean every place you go is hostile but when it is hostile it will be significantly more hostile vs UEE space. It's also where you run into aliens like the Vanduul and by that point you hope to have some pretty good gear or lots of friends with you.

Having said this they keep insisting they won't ever let you turn the PvP slider to 0 so there is a chance you man run into someone who will jump you. Mind you doing that in UEE space and getting caught, which they might or might not, will have them sour relations with the UEE and Advocacy and will result in them being gated (blown to bits at the heavily NPC defended jump points leading out of UEE space) should they decide to travel there or be hunted around the various systems and also have a price placed on their heads.

Keep in mind CIG actually want PvP. They have a whole mechanic ready to go for bounty hunting but also evading both them and the Advocacy. The most successful pirates will be the ones nobody knows about and that will require special equipment, likely multiple people and a fair amount of both skill and luck.

So yeah I wouldn't worry about feeling safe everywhere. This was already addressed and they want everyone to feel somewhat uneasy and not quite safe no matter where they are except for the few places I mentioned plus your own Hangar.

Now the question is... will they keep that game play or change things to shut up the loud minority? Will see.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
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What you and Tuco are talking about is cycling among already predetermined scripted content. So essentially you would go to a planet, and spam a bartender NPC until you find the derelict quest node. And if you can't find it, you ask in guild chat if anyones saw today's derelict alien spaceship daily and head there to do it.

What Variise is talking about is some romantic notion that you want to "go to the bar" in a video game and organically strike up a conversation to find a "rumor". Meh. For that to really work you need to be able to generate original content every single time. GW2 thought they could kinda do it, they didn't. Or you need to make so many scripts with a shit ton of skins so you never really see them repeating by the time you end up quitting the game.
I am not talking about Cycling through anything. Every person even in a real world has a limited amount of desires per day... if the world is at all dynamic and reactive to a player or group of players ( faction ) then I dont see why u cant do this. The desires or quests for a given NPC are based on WTF is going on around the town, its not hard to implement but no one does this like in Single player games.

It just takes a dynamic world that reacts to the players NPCs actions in it, other than *respawn* that is all. Hell, SWG was pretty close with its random encounters from mission terminals.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
I can't be the only one that reads all this and rolls my eyes. I just get the impression these guys are just nodding their head at every "good idea" and saying "yea, absolutely SC will have that, why wouldn't we?" when they are years away from ever demonstrating.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,588
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I can't be the only one that reads all this and rolls my eyes. I just get the impression these guys are just nodding their head at every "good idea" and saying "yea, absolutely SC will have that, why wouldn't we?" when they are years away from ever demonstrating.
Sadly I'm starting to feel like that as well. They should have just just got the shit they talked about in the initial KS done and got that shit out the door nice and polished. Then you can start adding all this other shit.
 

Variise

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Sadly I'm starting to feel like that as well. They should have just just got the shit they talked about in the initial KS done and got that shit out the door nice and polished. Then you can start adding all this other shit.
This comes up every other month and I feel like it's catch 22. There is tons of bitching here and elsewhere about game studios not listening to fans but where do you draw the line? Should they take the top 10 best ideas and ignore everything after that? Would that be logically reasonable to push development along?

Game development doesn't normally occur in this way to begin with. You don't get fully functioning features to play with a few years before release. They are building systems and then they are building the building blocks to connect them. The reason why you or anyone else feels this way is because you don't see the dots getting connected and won't for another six months.

Anyway the upside to doing it in this fashion is that you can decide later on how to accomplish those things that connect the systems you are building. This is where the vast majority of suggestions go. They can take suggestions because they haven't built many of those systems yet. Perhaps this doesn't look right to some since it's done the opposite way to how typical game development works. Often the argument I see is that you want all those features that connect other features fully functional before you start building on top of them. It's not a right/wrong answer. It's just a different methodology in building a game.

You are setting a sausage being made a different way and it's unsettling.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Not exactly. Chris doesn't want gamey elements like that. The NPC will chat to you and based on various status effects such as your rep, how you respond to them in the conversation etc they may or may not offer you various missions. It's even supposed to be context sensitive to how you look at them (paying attention or not) when they talk to you. Some may be completely unique that you won't ever see again, but others will that I described above, and some still that you can repeat at a later date. It's supposed to be a flowing conversation with a couple of branching options not like Bioware games that Chris feels forces you to go back and re-do everything to explore all options, and not a simple show up and get a mission and be on your way. How you respond will be remembered by the NPC and that interaction sticks with you until you die until you can't come back and have to re-roll a toon or come back with a different one.

So in short conversations with NPCs should have weight more similar to the Witcher series. Once you pick an option or do something.. that's it. I think that gives infinitely more re-playability which is more crucial for an MMO vs a single player game like Mass Effect or Dragon Age.
Problem is that even with a game like the Witcher series when you play it again you see the questing system and dialog options for what they are, a static entity. Thinking Star Citizen is going to create rich dialog that makes the hassle of running around a station worth it is just smoking hopium.
 

Variise

N00b
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Problem is that even with a game like the Witcher series when you play it again you see the questing system and dialog options for what they are, a static entity. Thinking Star Citizen is going to create rich dialog that makes the hassle of running around a station worth it is just smoking hopium.
Well I have great news for you. They are actually listening to players so why not come up with a great way to handle mission/questing and propose it to them? They actually read that shit and often respond when their duties allow.

If I had an amazing brain that can come up with the best solution to this problem I would spend the effort to do it myself but sadly I'm just another average player hoping for something better. My best propositions to them have been a ship name change and switching two rooms around on the Idris' interior which shockingly they actually did.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
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Variise, don't you see the conflict of interest here? They areliterally selling ideas to the customersat this point, and none of you have put the breaks on the free money train. The people responsible for collecting money are the same people coming up with new ideas, who are the same people who ought to say ("Whoa, stop -- lets make sure we have a fucking functional product before we add anything more to the to-do list.")

I can't think of any example from any industry where the developers have marketed a fucking idea so successfully, and I am growing progressively more dubious that the idea people will purposely halt their free $ influx in order to manage expectations and properly deliver on what they promise.
 

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
I can't be the only one that reads all this and rolls my eyes. I just get the impression these guys are just nodding their head at every "good idea" and saying "yea, absolutely SC will have that, why wouldn't we?" when they are years away from ever demonstrating.
Like I said: Battlecruiser 3000AD only worse.
 

Variise

N00b
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Variise, don't you see the conflict of interest here? They areliterally selling ideas to the customersat this point, and none of you have put the breaks on the free money train. The people responsible for collecting money are the same people coming up with new ideas, who are the same people who ought to say ("Whoa, stop -- lets make sure we have a fucking functional product before we add anything more to the to-do list.")

I can't think of any example from any industry where the developers have marketed a fucking idea so successfully, and I am growing progressively more dubious that the idea people will purposely halt their free $ influx in order to manage expectations and properly deliver on what they promise.
Once again you are assuming this game is being made the same way other games are made or you think it should have been made the same way as most other games. If it's the first I think I have already explained it in detail and it's tiring to repeat one's self. If it's the second sure that's a valid argument to make. We wouldn't be playing anything at all for probably the next year minimum, or the game would already be out, and yeah the game would likely have far less money pledged and far less ambitious (no FPS, no planetside, and limited to about a half dozen player flyable ships similar to past Wing Commander games). I personally would have pledged far less to the game as a result. My original pledge was $65 for a Freelancer based on the game we were promised at the time.

Not everyone is going to agree on this and there is something of a split in the community on this but the worst of it is Goons flinging poo on the walls to see what sticks. That doesn't mean it's not a valid argument. It's only a tired one, well over a year old forum meltdown, thanks to the Goons.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
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It does seem like an awful lot to promise. They can't just deliver on half of it, doing it this way. They have to deliver on most of it.

I hope so man. I really do hope so. But battlecruiser 3000AD.

I remember reading about that a while before EQ came out and I was all like, "way? No way!" Turns out, yeah, no way.

It would please me to be wrong.
 

Variise

N00b
497
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It does seem like an awful lot to promise. They can't just deliver on half of it, doing it this way. They have to deliver on most of it.

I hope so man. I really do hope so. But battlecruiser 3000AD.

I remember reading about that a while before EQ came out and I was all like, "way? No way!" Turns out, yeah, no way.

It would please me to be wrong.
Oh this will be long. For those reading and not wanting to read a wall of text skip to my very last paragraph which best sums up the whole affair.


Can we agree there were two kinds of promises made?

The Pledge Goals: which at this point vary between Wave 4 ships not expected until 2016 right before launch and a Space Plant. Hell CIG actually asked us if we wanted to keep the goals going in an official poll as they felt it was enough. We voted yes.

There hasn't been a game mechanic as a pledge goal since $41 million (I checked and it was in January of this year) which was the Procedural Generation R&D (Used for the expanded Economic Model and Exploration both in space and planetside to quickly build worlds). Everything else has been stuff (mostly items) you would get in game or the occasional website change/update poll. Hell I'm not sure this one even counts but it's close enough I guess. The pledges leading up to it were for adding more star systems and the Wave 3 ships all the way to $29 million where the goal was added design for Squadron 42.

Dynamic Economic Model, FPS, multi-crew ships, multiplayer EVA (including ship boarding) etc were not part of the original game design and were all added to the to-do list prior to even hitting $27 million which was the original goal of the entire project. So this whole narrative that they are constantly tacking on features is largely a bad joke.

The only real exception to that is Planetside Exploration which wasn't even a thing until a major poll conducted on the site earlier this year. No promise was made to actually deliver it for launch but CR would like to see a light variation of it if he can fit it in. It might not make it but if they can they will try and if not it will be added first shortly after launch. So that's it. That one feature is the seemingly unending flow of added designs to the game.

Ok so that's the Pledge Goals. I hope we can agree now that it's a bullshit argument from gaming mags and alarmist Goons on the forums further spread by misinformed people at no fault of their own.


Now here comes the other side of the coin. This is where you guys watching 10FTC and RtV cringing at Chris and some other Dev saying hey that's a great idea we will look into putting that into the game...

Game Design: I'm not going to explain it but I will simply mention that things like PU mission design, world creation and even AI is all in either early concept phase with miniature versions for testing with very few tangible things Devs can play with (their first true AI v1.0 for an NPC was only created a month ago along with the first few star systems for the Economic Model) or still in R&D (Instancing, seamless space > planet transition, Interspace and Jump Points) or even initial design phase on paper (PU mission logic).

So when you see the devs getting excited about a great idea to incorporate into the game keep in mind that they are referring to things they haven't implemented. They might have a variation on it which is more basic but it's probably in concept. If they ignored the players we wouldn't have a character model which is accurate both in 1st and 3rd person and they would have to either fix it later post launch, fake it like most games do with invisible hit boxes, not do one at all since there wouldn't be an FPS Module if it was up to many people.

Anyway it's the right time to ask them to do something differently since it's early enough to change. Asking them two years ago would have been great too but where was everyone then? Asking them two years from now to go fix the PU mission system because it's too boring is exactly as bad as it sounds. They are obviously more responsive than CCP so it might not take them 10 fucking years to bother to re-vamp the mission system only to barely touch it and claim it's done, why would anyone ever be upset about that I wonder, so CIG might go and fix it to people's liking or may never fix it because there is no perfect solution without spending ridiculous sums of money... or people can suggest a game design change and see if it makes sense to them and see if they can incorporate it. If it makes sense and doesn't adversely impact the game release they might do it or they might delay the game specifically for that.

A great example is Squadron 42. Now that they are half way through building out the first 10 missions they are finding that it will take the player five to ten more hours to complete it. It was originally supposed to be roughly 1 hour per mission. Now it's between 1.5-2 hours per mission. This pushed Episode I of SQ42 back nearly six months in the schedule. If it was Bioware EA would have told them to re-do the entire script and cut it in half or only release the first half and release the second half as a brand new game. SQ42's team had a massive increase in staff to help with the production and try to get it back on track but it looks like even with increase of close to 50% more staff they are still short and are still hiring.

The reason why you or anyone else can't see any other game in the industry being made this way is because none are. They have very strict budgets with very specific goals and you get what you pay for. Case in point Dragon Age 2 with an 18 month development time. Some enjoy it and some thing it's an abortion. Everyone bitches one way or another. Dragon Age:O spent at least 6 years in development. One was a well oiled team given the short end of the stick and still managed to create a working, albeit not great, game and the other had to build a team from the ground up and create everything from scratch. Yeah it took them six years.

Star Citizen has been in development for approximately 3 years with 2 years of actual development and one year of pre-dev planning, world/story creation etc with like 3-5 people besides CR. The first year of their development was with sub 100 employees with the first half of the year with about half that. With nearly 300 employees now one of the lead devs commented a few weeks back that they are understaffed and are still hiring.

Now you can make a valid argument about how he promised X and wants to deliver Y and should have delivered X by now or soon. That's fine and I even agree with it on some level. However compared to any other game in development I have to say this is bullshit and point out that it's an unfair comparison since most games with half of the scope take 4-8 years to make from the ground up and what do we get? All we get is bitching about how the major studios are selling out gamers by not listening to them, ignoring past mistakes and shitting out games for the sake of the shareholders and not the gamers.

If CR had stuck to his original game design plan and never added any pledge goals a different set of people would be commenting here about how it didn't take any game design risks, how uninspired the entire game design was since it was done before in past WC and Privateer games and how he cashed in on his past glory, how much of a rip off of WC the game was and how everyone should avoid it like the plague. That would be right up UT's alley and I would be here commenting how he made a valid argument but still enjoyed the game further pissing him off.
 

Dyvim

Bronze Knight of the Realm
1,420
195
...stuff... If it was Bioware EA would have told them to re-do the entire script and cut it in half or only release the first half and release the second half as a dozen dlcs for 10-20 bucks a pop. ...more stuff...
Fixed


PS: Im not buying into that Hopium train as ill never do, but -and thats a big- but if someone in this rotten industry is trusted to push the limits it would be CR.