Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

Imagine trying to derail our hate-thread campfire with political buzzwords "Liberals", "Capitalism". The fucking nerve of this bitch.

pysek said:

Get your dumb ass in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.

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She could create a gooey interface using visual basic so she can track an ip address. Sandwiches are beneath her.

- 8 episodes total unless they can secure distro from....a street food truck vendor

- final 4 episodes going through extensive rewrites during production by Goldman

- CBS funding all out of pocket confirmed-- resulting in a small number of episodes

- licensees walked out on Strange New Worlds (Netflix and Amazon) after a viewing, no sale occurred

- merchandising nonexistent

Sounds like whynning to me

I think what you’re experiencing is quality of writing issues. “SJW” stuff has existed for decades. Beyond just being hyper sensitive to it now, some writers have a tough time balancing message with story. Good writers make the message part of the story, bad writers try to make the story part of the message.

Cybsled said:

I think what you’re experiencing is quality of writing issues. “SJW” stuff has existed for decades. Beyond just being hyper sensitive to it now, some writers have a tough time balancing message with story. Good writers make the message part of the story, bad writers try to make the story part of the message.

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This is what I'm saying. The basic premise of Star Trek would be considered SJW shit if they had made that show today. But the show had a compelling narrative and cast and used progressive ideas to show a possible future that was interesting and hopeful. The problem with Picard isn't that it was too woke, subtract X amount of wokeness and it will suddenly be a good show. It is bad writing and bad casting. And a disjointed premise that doesn't line up with existing lore.

Mist said:

There's just no fucking subtlety or nuance in nearly any writing. It's why cartoons like Rick and Morty and Bojack Horseman are refreshing; they're actually well-written, where most of the shit we get from these big budget, live-action streaming shows so utterly dumbed down. I've been watching a bunch of old comedy movies from the 1930s and 1940s and marveling at how sharp the writing is. You have all these great films about some stuffy businessman and some sharp-tongued woman, and the dialogue absolutely blows away anything you hear in similarly plotted movies today. Comedy writing of that era was fucking Shakespeare compared to what we're getting now.

There are only so many good writers in the world at any given time, and with the absolute flood of content coming out between all the different streaming services, the fact that basically none of them have good writing is not actually surprising. So it's not that people are writing bad shit because they're pushing an agenda, it's that they're writing bad shit because they literally can't do any better. They're either not sending their best people to the writing rooms, or they are sending their best people, and their best people are just not good enough.

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Like you said, it makes money. Why bother with extra effort or time when good enough will do.

There's also much, much more content than ever before. There are plenty of great shows but it's mixed in with the glut of reality shows and nonsense.

Cybsled said:

I think what you’re experiencing is quality of writing issues. “SJW” stuff has existed for decades. Beyond just being hyper sensitive to it now, some writers have a tough time balancing message with story. Good writers make the message part of the story, bad writers try to make the story part of the message.

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chaos said:

This is what I'm saying. The basic premise of Star Trek would be considered SJW shit if they had made that show today. But the show had a compelling narrative and cast and used progressive ideas to show a possible future that was interesting and hopeful. The problem with Picard isn't that it was too woke, subtract X amount of wokeness and it will suddenly be a good show. It is bad writing and bad casting. And a disjointed premise that doesn't line up with existing lore.

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Its not the SJW writers. Star Trek has always had SJW writers. Not sure how many times this has been said. The issue is the dominance of Social Justice as a cultural force has made it so questioning Social Justice themes in any way has become difficult or impossible. This kills subtly and nuance in narratives because the writers don't even have to think about the themes they want to include, or any issues with said themes.

If you want an example--look at TNG. They wanted to include gay scenes. They got severe push back. So you wound up with a rather nuanced and challenging approach to gender and sexual issues. Yes, the writers always had SJWs--but not EVERYONE was an SJW, it wasn't a total echo chamber. Things change when it becomes a total echo chamber. The writers weren't better at balancing this stuff....they had active push back that FORCED them to balance their ideological views.

If you don't believe me, look at how normal Scientologists can look in public vs the batshit stuff they get up to while isolated. Now imagine if everyone was a Scientologist...do you think that shitty, crazy, dogma would slip into their work? Yes. Echo chambers are bad. Adversity helps make entertainment great...When there is no adversity of thought, you get bad art.

Phazael said:

Fury Road, John Wick, F is for Family, The Ranch, Wolf of Wallstreet, and like anything prior to 2000 was written without much if any SJW presence in the creative end. If you really want to see how the mind virus took root in real time, just compare season one (and most of two) of the Flash with everything that followed. SJWs do not make bad writers on the face of it, but if they have total power it turns to shit. Exhibit A Steven Universe was a mildly entertaining show with some SJW themes at the outset and now its a neverending tranny propaganda cartoon. Meanwhile, Gumball on the same fucking network run by shitlords is killing it in the ratings.

Orville is actually a solid example of a show with SJW themes but with some good shitlord balance, which is what peak Star Trek should also be.

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It's the dose that's the poison, really. I pointed it out already, but watch S1 of TNG...men in skirts, Ferengi used as laughably obtuse satire of capitalism ect ect. Hardcore SJWs pushed S1. And it sucked, and they got pushed back on by a number of people, and they began to compromise...and you wound up with a nuanced, balanced show, rather than dogshit.

An oppressive cultural force is always bad for art...and always will be.

Mist said:

Are there plenty of great shows? I'm having a hard time finding any current shows that compare to shows from 15-20-25-30 years ago. The last "great" show I can remember is True Detective Season 1.

You used to have shows with an entire team of great writers. Now you're lucky to have a show with 1 good writer for 1 season.

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Sure there are. Season 1 of True Detective was an anomaly, it was so good. But there are great shows currently in production, like Better Call Saul, Schitts Creek, Succession, Fleabag, so many animated shows I can't even name them all, that Haunting of Hill House anthology, Cobra Kai, Ozark, so many shows. Vastly outnumbered by the mediocre to garbage as fuck shows. But the gems are there and more plentiful than ever. We also consume media differently now, its almost ephemeral, binge one show and move on to the next and they become easy to forget.

Imagine seeing Twin Peaks s3 ever made, much less in the 90s airing after Cheers or some shit.

Lithose said:

If you want an example--look at TNG. They wanted to include gay scenes. They got severe push back. So you wound up with a rather nuanced and challenging approach to gender and sexual issues. Yes, the writers always had SJWs--but not EVERYONE was an SJW, it wasn't a total echo chamber. Things change when it becomes a total echo chamber. The writers weren't better at balancing this stuff....they had active push back that FORCED them to balance their ideological views.

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The TNG thing had nothing to do with balance, it had to do with "how do we convey this given the restrictions placed upon us?". Usually the restrictions were coming from executives or the studios bank rolling the whole thing, not the writing staff.

Like Original Star Trek. The scene where Kirk kissed Uhura - they got major pushback on that because of racial issues. The higher ups eventually allowed it because of the team writing that made it so both were being controlled by an alien entity, but even after that the studio wanted to limit the scene. Shatner basically sabotaged the shoot to make sure the kiss got into the final cut by making the alternate takes/scenes really shitty.

Now that being said, restrictions can sometimes foster some really good creativity that might not normally come into play. Think about how many shows, movies, or audio casts are able to push all sorts of shit past the censors or people overseeing shit because they had to be very clever in how they conveyed it. The message is still there, it is just presented in a way that eludes the people wanting to prevent or limit that message.

Also, in terms of balance in the writing room, that always needs to exist. But it isn't always ideological. At the end of the day, it needs to come down to: Does this serve the story? Does this fit or develop the character? Does this limit what we can do in the future? A room full of ideological writers can still put out a good story that fits their view. The problem is always when their view takes precedence over the story and dilutes or diminishes the whole product due to that.

Mist said:

There's just no fucking subtlety or nuance in nearly any writing. It's why cartoons like Rick and Morty and Bojack Horseman are refreshing; they're actually well-written, where most of the shit we get from these big budget, live-action streaming shows so utterly dumbed down. I've been watching a bunch of old comedy movies from the 1930s and 1940s and marveling at how sharp the writing is. You have all these great films about some stuffy businessman and some sharp-tongued woman, and the dialogue absolutely blows away anything you hear in similarly plotted movies today. Comedy writing of that era was fucking Shakespeare compared to what we're getting now.

There are only so many good writers in the world at any given time, and with the absolute flood of content coming out between all the different streaming services, the fact that basically none of them have good writing is not actually surprising. So it's not that people are writing bad shit because they're pushing an agenda, it's that they're writing bad shit because they literally can't do any better. They're either not sending their best people to the writing rooms, or they are sending their best people, and their best people are just not good enough.

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grats on just discovering Screwball comedies. if you havent already, check out Topper, His Girl Friday or even Blondie.

Mist said:

There's just no fucking subtlety or nuance in nearly any writing. It's why cartoons like Rick and Morty and Bojack Horseman are refreshing; they're actually well-written, where most of the shit we get from these big budget, live-action streaming shows so utterly dumbed down. I've been watching a bunch of old comedy movies from the 1930s and 1940s and marveling at how sharp the writing is. You have all these great films about some stuffy businessman and some sharp-tongued woman, and the dialogue absolutely blows away anything you hear in similarly plotted movies today. Comedy writing of that era was fucking Shakespeare compared to what we're getting now.

There are only so many good writers in the world at any given time, and with the absolute flood of content coming out between all the different streaming services, the fact that basically none of them have good writing is not actually surprising. So it's not that people are writing bad shit because they're pushing an agenda, it's that they're writing bad shit because they literally can't do any better. They're either not sending their best people to the writing rooms, or they are sending their best people, and their best people are just not good enough.

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This is because today's writers aren't forced to hone their craft in the trenches. They used to have to prove themselves before they were given the keys to their own production. Sure there were outliers here and there...there always is...but it is now normal for someone very inexperienced to get their own production or have the lead in them.

To give you an idea how bad it is, RJ got Star Wars and they went into production with his FIRST DRAFT of the film. That would have gotten you shot 20 years ago.

A prime example of honing the craft is Jerry Seinfeld who took 5 years to the month to become an instant success. Comedians had to spend years in comedy clubs getting their act together. Now, they go on SNL for a season and get burped out on film productions. The problem is, they never honed anything. When was the last time a comedian was actually funny?

Look at sitcoms of the 70's-90's. There's some sharp writing in there. There were a lot of quality dramas during that time. You could flip a channel and hit good stuff most of the time. Now, finding a single good show or film is a rarity.

If there is good writing (which there is), it never sees the light of day because production studios want something that sells and has no risk. This is why we get a constant stream of empty super hero movies and retreads of old films.

Writing (produced) today sucks because the writers have no experience, and thus no depth.

Fucker said:

This is because today's writers aren't forced to hone their craft in the trenches. They used to have to prove themselves before they were given the keys to their own production. Sure there were outliers here and there...there always is...but it is now normal for someone very inexperienced to get their own production or have the lead in them.

To give you an idea how bad it is, RJ got Star Wars and they went into production with his FIRST DRAFT of the film. That would have gotten you shot 20 years ago.

A prime example of honing the craft is Jerry Seinfeld who took 5 years to the month to become an instant success. Comedians had to spend years in comedy clubs getting their act together. Now, they go on SNL for a season and get burped out on film productions. The problem is, they never honed anything. When was the last time a comedian was actually funny?

Look at sitcoms of the 70's-90's. There's some sharp writing in there. There were a lot of quality dramas during that time. You could flip a channel and hit good stuff most of the time. Now, finding a single good show or film is a rarity.

If there is good writing (which there is), it never sees the light of day because production studios want something that sells and has no risk. This is why we get a constant stream of empty super hero movies and retreads of old films.

Writing (produced) today sucks because the writers have no experience, and thus no depth.

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it used to be Indie films was where its at for good writing, but those guys are the wokest of all now. they spend so much time smelling their own farts they dont even bother writing anything of quality. its why i am a bitter asshole when it comes to today's movies, i grew up on all those old shows and movies, some of my favorite films are from the Silent Age, because they could convey an entire story without uttering a word. just actions and even eye movements.

Silent Age films sucked, besides the comedies. Because slapstick is timeless.