Strife - 2nd gen MOBA

an accordion_sl said:

Denying, punishment for dying, access to heroes, courier, TP scroll, items that you activate...

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Which aside from denying are either not mechanically intensive at all (lol has clicky/toggle items as well) or have nothing to do with mechanics. Just pointing this out because the two previous posters are talking about mechanical skill.

Having said that, DoTA does have a higher mechanics cap on certain heroes so I don't think anyone can make the argument that mechanically lol is on par with DoTA. It is not however mechanically brain dead like a lot of DotA players say it is. Lee Sin, Ezreal, Syndra, Leblanc, Elise, and others take a very high amount of mechanical skill to play to their potential.

I think it was Zaphid that mentioned the comments about esports and the only thing I really have to say to that is....do you blame Riot? Why would you not try to shut out the competition totally. Smart business to me.

That being said, I have no fucking clue why the use adobe air...I have never seen anything good come of anything done with adobe air.

I suppose my problem with DOTA (which btw I played the original and is probably the reason I am playing LoL) is there is just a lot to keep track of to play the game to its potential that it just seems tedious for me. Which ties in to my biggest problem with the game, which is denying....I just absolutely hate it and hate how it is a thing that carried over from the original (which to my understanding was an engine limitation at the time).

I would certainly give this game a go just to see how it is, I almost always try something out no matter what the look or first impressions of it. The only exception being if this board has a huge majority going against it as I tend to think along the same vein as this board.

I used to love HoN so much... until I played Dota 2 (never played original Dota) and I realized how fuck-tarded the balance decisions were in HON. However, I still fire up HON once or twice a month because I love some of the heroes (Gemini, Monkey King, Midas). I also love the cash shop in HON. It is by far and away the best cash shop in a game to date. The skins, the announcers and the couriers were all awesome. Some of the skins were just outright video game classics (Pimp Slayer, OHHHHH Yeaar).

Will definitely give this a shot.

sebur_sl said:

I think it was Zaphid that mentioned the comments about esports and the only thing I really have to say to that is....do you blame Riot? Why would you not try to shut out the competition totally. Smart business to me.

That being said, I have no fucking clue why the use adobe air...I have never seen anything good come of anything done with adobe air.

I suppose my problem with DOTA (which btw I played the original and is probably the reason I am playing LoL) is there is just a lot to keep track of to play the game to its potential that it just seems tedious for me. Which ties in to my biggest problem with the game, which is denying....I just absolutely hate it and hate how it is a thing that carried over from the original (which to my understanding was an engine limitation at the time).

I would certainly give this game a go just to see how it is, I almost always try something out no matter what the look or first impressions of it. The only exception being if this board has a huge majority going against it as I tend to think along the same vein as this board.

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not really an engine limitation. More like... feature. An emergent tactic from an rarely used feature. Akin to rocket jumping or z strafing in Quake. An oddity of the physics engine, that was very useful. and even fun. None of which are very intuitive.

Rocket jumping I will defend. But denying is more like z strafing, bunny hoping. shit is annoying, dumb looking, and of poor tactical design. And easily replaced mechanically with sprints, like was done in many games, including Tribes and its skiing.



Pretty sure many of us will at least try Strife.

Caliane_sl said:

not really an engine limitation. More like... feature. An emergent tactic from an rarely used feature. Akin to rocket jumping or z strafing in Quake. An oddity of the physics engine, that was very useful. and even fun. None of which are very intuitive.

Rocket jumping I will defend. But denying is more like z strafing, bunny hoping. shit is annoying, dumb looking, and of poor tactical design. And easily replaced mechanically with sprints, like was done in many games, including Tribes and its skiing.



Pretty sure many of us will at least try Strife.

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How is denying a limitation or an annoyance? It adds a whole other dimension to laning where instead of just right clicking creeps like a stupid monkey, it enables you to deny your enemy some gold and half the experience. It's an added layer of complexity that makes it very interesting.

Dumb looking and poor design? If anything its an extension of the entire last hitting mechanic and makes the game more complex.

sebur_sl said:

I suppose my problem with DOTA (which btw I played the original and is probably the reason I am playing LoL) is there is just a lot to keep track of to play the game to its potential that it just seems tedious for me. Which ties in to my biggest problem with the game, which is denying....I just absolutely hate it and hate how it is a thing that carried over from the original (which to my understanding was an engine limitation at the time).

.

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having less things to worry about is dumbing down the game so each potential user is at a leveled playing field, i love the fact i can shut down a retard like you in dota with denies, beause its simply too hard of a mechanic for you to keep track of.

Nutron_sl said:

How is denying a limitation or an annoyance? It adds a whole other dimension to laning where instead of just right clicking creeps like a stupid monkey, it enables you to deny your enemy some gold and half the experience. It's an added layer of complexity that makes it very interesting.

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Its simply a zoning mechanic. Which can be handled much more elegantly in other ways. ways in which are not counter-intuitive.

Caliane_sl said:

Its simply a zoning mechanic. Which can be handled much more elegantly in other ways. ways in which are not counter-intuitive.

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How is it counter-intuitive ? the only hidden thing about it is that you can only do it when the creep drops below 50%. You see a person lasthit their creep, so you try it the next time you see a low hp creep and the whole things is figured out.

I didn't mind denying at all; I actually agree the data/hon lane phase seems more important. However the neutral creep pull thing is just a dumb mechanic. It provided a huge advantage to the lane which required a ward to beat.. how is that "fun"? Or skillful.


But what I really disliked in dota/hon were the team fights. Best way I can describe my opinion on them is that in hon/dota the most important part of the fight was pre fight positioning and initiation. Where as in league, the fights are much more dynamic and last a lot longer. This results in small positioning changes having a large impact on the outcome.


Oh ya, mages not scaling is also just dumb. As I said before, the concept behind god mode hyper caries that just farm farm farm then 1v5 ur team with shrunken head got old really fast.


I second the hon shop being the best. I'm still surprised league hasn't done announcer packs or a taunt mechanic. They don't even really have ward skins (although some r coming)

Pyros_sl said:

It's not just a zoning mechanic, it's a lane control mechanic, which might be handled another way sure, but isn't done currently in any game. LoL simply removed the entire concept. You only have 2 options, not push and the lane will do whatever it wants depending on creeps AI at the time of the clash, player messing with aggro and how soon you last hit, or push. You can't "pull" or "stop" the lane where you want, you cannot remove xp and gold from the enemy lane entirely(and that's not denying, that's pulling the lane into neutrals, so the enemy gets nothing at all, not even half xp), which is basically the same as if you could not push. Imagine you could ONLY hurt creeps when they're in last hit range. Would that be better because there's less things to keep track of? At that point, do what one of the copy game did and simply remove last hitting. You're in range when a creep dies, you get gold. It's fucking awful but it follows the same principle as removing denies.

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Lane manipulation is huge in lol. I can manipulate the lane so that it sits just outside my tower range for multiple waves, which leaves the enemy laner either losing last hits/xp if they play cautiously or if they stay in xp/last hit range wide open for ganks from my other lanes or jungle. You can proxy farm in between enemy towers which gives you 100% cs but leaves you in a very vulnerable position if your warding and map control isn't good. The proxy farming then forces the enemy laner to either give you your 100% farm while tanking your minions away from their tower so they don't lose last hits to the tower or let the tower take consistent damage (a lot of champs can't face tank creeps like this so it may not even be an option), or they come after you to stop your farm and in doing so lose theirs and let their tower take damage. There are a variety of ways to manipulate creep waves, we just don't have the obvious tool of jungle pulling so things like proxy push or which order we nuke down minions in a wave are how waves become manipulated. There was even a strat called the sixth man that was used by CJ Entus Blaze in the Korean pro league. Their side laners would basically build these massive creep balls over a span of five to ten minutes deep in their lanes, thereby denying farm to the enemy side lanes and then when Blaze would hit their power spikes they would unleash one or both of these minion waves as they went after another tower or objective. The resulting push in those lanes from minions alone would take towers at a frightening pace while Blaze pinned down the enemy in another area of the map. That seems to be pretty heavy lane control as far as creeps are concerned.

Lenaldo_sl said:

I didn't mind denying at all; I actually agree the data/hon lane phase seems more important. However the neutral creep pull thing is just a dumb mechanic. It provided a huge advantage to the lane which required a ward to beat.. how is that "fun"? Or skillful.


But what I really disliked in dota/hon were the team fights. Best way I can describe my opinion on them is that in hon/dota the most important part of the fight was pre fight positioning and initiation. Where as in league, the fights are much more dynamic and last a lot longer. This results in small positioning changes having a large impact on the outcome.


Oh ya, mages not scaling is also just dumb. As I said before, the concept behind god mode hyper caries that just farm farm farm then 1v5 ur team with shrunken head got old really fast.


I second the hon shop being the best. I'm still surprised league hasn't done announcer packs or a taunt mechanic. They don't even really have ward skins (although some r coming)

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Pretty much everything you said here was wrong.

TecKnoe_sl said:

having less things to worry about is dumbing down the game so each potential user is at a leveled playing field, i love the fact i can shut down a retard like you in dota with denies, beause its simply too hard of a mechanic for you to keep track of.

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I love the fact that you can't because I don't play dota, that being said, nobody said it was "hard" I just said there is too much stupid shit to keep track of that I don't want to keep track of because to me it is tedious and if it is tedious then it doesn't feel like I am playing a game so I am not having fun. All that being said, come to league and I will "shut down a retard like you" as well.

My friends always play HoN and I tried to play with them and just didn't like the style. The super long cc's bothered me the most. Recently we have been playing Smite a lot again. I enjoy Smite due to almost everything being a skill shot so you can easily out play people.

sebur_sl said:

I love the fact that you can't because I don't play dota, that being said, nobody said it was "hard" I just said there is too much stupid shit to keep track of that I don't want to keep track of because to me it is tedious and if it is tedious then it doesn't feel like I am playing a game so I am not having fun. All that being said, come to league and I will "shut down a retard like you" as well.

My friends always play HoN and I tried to play with them and just didn't like the style. The super long cc's bothered me the most. Recently we have been playing Smite a lot again. I enjoy Smite due to almost everything being a skill shot so you can easily out play people.

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The whole dota vs LoL debate is stupid. You said it best in your first sentence, some people like a simpler game and there's nothing wrong with that. They are different games, one has more complexity and a higher skill cap, doesnt mean either are good or bad, just catters to different people.

Nutron_sl said:

The whole dota vs LoL debate is stupid. You said it best in your first sentence, some people like a simpler game and there's nothing wrong with that. They are different games, one has more complexity and a higher skill cap, doesnt mean either are good or bad, just catters to different people.

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That closes the Dota 2 vs LoL debate v27, and everyone agrees Strife will be crap.

/thread

Pyros_sl said:

That was an interesting read thank you, I haven't watched much lol at all since I stopped playing and wasn't aware people were doing that. I watched a couple of matches recently, I think Azubu vs someone else which from my understanding was a top tier match(2 asian teams etc) and the teamfights were indeed very high level but the laning was boring as all fuck. I wonder though, how do you build up a creepwave in LoL? Last I played if you have 2 creepwaves fighting one it'll automatically push if yours is bigger/has 2 waves, and there's no way to block or delay it or whatever? Or did you mean like they waited until the lane was pushed up to their tower base, then nuked down enemy waves quickly after waiting for say one creep to die, so that by the middle of the lane there was 2 or 3 creepwaves stacked together?

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You are correct, there is no way to actually block or delay the creeps so as Vimseh pointed out you do it by how you kill creeps (order), whether you tank the creeps a little bit to prevent them from getting to tower and other things that are similar. A good example would be that most people push the lane up by killing all the creeps really quickly and push it up to the enemy tower so they can go back and buy. By doing this by the time they get back in lane the creeps wave has already begun to come back towards your tower.