Strife - 2nd gen MOBA

Nidhogg

Molten Core Raider
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Here is a decent write-up of crafting (not sure if it is current with the latest patch, but the fundamentals are there.)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...CCnKdMsDUbB5Qw

Basically it lets you tailor your item buildup for certain heros. Also makes some weapon choices viable whereas beforehand you would not pick them. Coupled with pets it really gives you the personalization and let you tailor how you play the game. Whether things will be too OP or not is for us to discover as we beta test, which is what you all are there for
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Draegan_sl

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I love the idea of the system, it seems really awesome. I'm just skeptical of how they pay to win system comes into play. I don't know anything about the system yet, so I won't get rustled about it.
 

Pyros

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The crafting seems fine, it's the enchanting I'm not too sure about since that lets you reach the legendary mods on the items and those seem fairly strong and they're temporary while elixirs is what you get the least of by playing the game. Not sure if you can use gems for it but assume you can too so yeah don't know. Need to actually start crafting but not too sure what to craft, most items I use I tend to use them on heroes that use the stats. Guess maybe I'll try just making a random test item.
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
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Seems interesting, can't wait to see what S2 does this time and see if they've learned balancing properly because HoN was a goddamn mess other than the direct dota copy heroes
 

Draegan_sl

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They seem to have only 14 heroes right now, what do they plan on launching with and how does that number compare to other games?
 

Pyros

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They seem to have only 14 heroes right now, what do they plan on launching with and how does that number compare to other games?
Well it's super early in the dev cycle atm, they just added matchmaking and it's fairly shit atm it just finds people, you can't even select heroes as a team you select your hero then you queue so like this is probably 8 to 12months from soft release(aka open beta). Iirc they were fairly quick at adding heroes back in the hon days, so I'd say one every couple of weeks or so, for that duration, gonna end up around 50ish heroes for soft release, which seems like an acceptable baseline number.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
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They seem to have only 14 heroes right now, what do they plan on launching with and how does that number compare to other games?
I think it'd be fine for a MOBA to launch with substantially less heroes than LOL/DOTA... makes the learning curve much more forgiving. People will play if the gameplay is fun and something new; there are a lot of guys in the MOBA community who have played thousands and thousands of pretty much the same thing from W3 dota onward.

Maybe its just my inner newb coming out and I quake in fear of getting wrecked by heroes I don't recognize or understand.
 

Nidhogg

Molten Core Raider
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The goal is to have a lower amount of heros, as asking a newcomer or even a MOBA veteran to learn 100+ heros is silly. A small core pool of heroes with variability built into item and pet builds diversifies without confusing.
 

Draegan_sl

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I think it'd be fine for a MOBA to launch with substantially less heroes than LOL/DOTA... makes the learning curve much more forgiving. People will play if the gameplay is fun and something new; there are a lot of guys in the MOBA community who have played thousands and thousands of pretty much the same thing from W3 dota onward.

Maybe its just my inner newb coming out and I quake in fear of getting wrecked by heroes I don't recognize or understand.
Did you get a beta key? Gonna hit this up tonight with Mike tonight I think.
 

Draegan_sl

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I just went up against a Moxie that had some legendary item and just got wrecked. I have no idea how hero balance is, but essentially it was retarded. Fuck this game with that shit.
 

Pyros

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I just went up against a Moxie that had some legendary item and just got wrecked. I have no idea how hero balance is, but essentially it was retarded. Fuck this game with that shit.
Well to be honest, it's no different than playing against someone with a full rune page when you don't have any runes yet. It's unlikely to happen in lol because the matchmaking is more granular with the leveling process and there's a large pool of players so you can split the population more easily, but if you play a lobby against a friend in that situation, it's pretty much the same. I assume the matchmaking will take items into account eventually, or have a level based system to separate players based on gains.

As far as I'm concerned, both systems suck dicks compared to dota2. Runes, buy champions, crafting items, buying pets, it's all the same shit. But I guess money has to be made somewhere and not everyone can afford to have the valve infrastructure for cosmetics.
 

Sulrn

Deuces
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I feel like I'm missing something. Been going through the thread and the website and just not seeing anything that gives the game any weight behind the "second gen" claim. As far as I know everything that is currently planned has been in another game or Moba before. What is the breakthrough besides the marketing ploy?
 

Nutron_sl

shitlord
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0
I feel like I'm missing something. Been going through the thread and the website and just not seeing anything that gives the game any weight behind the "second gen" claim. As far as I know everything that is currently planned has been in another game or Moba before. What is the breakthrough besides the marketing ploy?
I feel the exact same way, played some games and couldnt see what was "next gen" or revolutionary...
 

Penance

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I feel the heroes are really uninspired in this game. This is from S2? The creators of Gemini and Midas? They are playing it way to safe.
 

bayr_sl

shitlord
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I don't know about the 'second generation' claims but I think they've made a game with a pretty good pace to it, it kind of feels like Awesomenauts or something to me more than other ASSFAGGOT games.

That said I am worried about p2w elements in their crafting and pets (mostly pets) and even more worried about some of the stuff I'm reading on the reddit forum. They seem to have an obsession with all things "toxic" to the point where it looks like they're willing to completely fuck up their own game as long as it means there's less people bickering at eachother. I think that's fundamentally the wrong philosophy to bring to a game because it just means limitations and restrictions (like the awfulness of the current UI is actually methods of reducing 'toxicity' not just a bad UI) on your game to curb the poor behavior of a small group of players. That's just a dumb philosophy.

So to me it's kind of a toss-up whether they completely ruin their own game or not right now. I think there's definitely an opportunity to learn from current games and make a really fun one, which is also what I'd categorize Heroes of the Storm as doing, even if I'm even more doubtful about that. But the obsession with "toxicity" is looking like it's just going to drive this game into the ground. It feels like they are forcing child safety locks on everything
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Well to be honest, it's no different than playing against someone with a full rune page when you don't have any runes yet. It's unlikely to happen in lol because the matchmaking is more granular with the leveling process and there's a large pool of players so you can split the population more easily, but if you play a lobby against a friend in that situation, it's pretty much the same. I assume the matchmaking will take items into account eventually, or have a level based system to separate players based on gains.

As far as I'm concerned, both systems suck dicks compared to dota2. Runes, buy champions, crafting items, buying pets, it's all the same shit. But I guess money has to be made somewhere and not everyone can afford to have the valve infrastructure for cosmetics.
I'm sorry, but I went up against players with full rune pages when I was leveling up in LOL (I was playing with Gold players at the time) and this was nothing like that. Runes give you a small amount of extra power in the first few levels of a game, but not that much of an advantage. This guy had an item that gave crazy regen and power levels. I just kept getting chunked when I wasn't even behind. His mana regen was also ridiculous.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
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I don't know about the 'second generation' claims but I think they've made a game with a pretty good pace to it, it kind of feels like Awesomenauts or something to me more than other ASSFAGGOT games.

That said I am worried about p2w elements in their crafting and pets (mostly pets) and even more worried about some of the stuff I'm reading on the reddit forum. They seem to have an obsession with all things "toxic" to the point where it looks like they're willing to completely fuck up their own game as long as it means there's less people bickering at eachother. I think that's fundamentally the wrong philosophy to bring to a game because it just means limitations and restrictions (like the awfulness of the current UI is actually methods of reducing 'toxicity' not just a bad UI) on your game to curb the poor behavior of a small group of players. That's just a dumb philosophy.

So to me it's kind of a toss-up whether they completely ruin their own game or not right now. I think there's definitely an opportunity to learn from current games and make a really fun one, which is also what I'd categorize Heroes of the Storm as doing, even if I'm even more doubtful about that. But the obsession with "toxicity" is looking like it's just going to drive this game into the ground. It feels like they are forcing child safety locks on everything
I really like this game's mechanics of the map. The heroes are really boring though, especially for a studio that already has a fleshed out MOBA. My problem is with these crafted items and shit. I just don't know how they are going to curb that with match making because you have to combine a player's internal MMR/ELO/Ranking and combine that with legendary items or not. Because if you have two players of similar skill go up against each other, that purple item just gives a person a significant edge. It just creates frustration. All players should be equal coming into a match.

Second though: Maybe having legendary items will just inflate your current level/ranking so you start getting put into games with higher ranked players when you are a lower rank. I don't know if that will cause players to get frustrated themselves.
 

Pyros

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I'm sorry, but I went up against players with full rune pages when I was leveling up in LOL (I was playing with Gold players at the time) and this was nothing like that. Runes give you a small amount of extra power in the first few levels of a game, but not that much of an advantage. This guy had an item that gave crazy regen and power levels. I just kept getting chunked when I wasn't even behind. His mana regen was also ridiculous.
A full runepage gives a massive advantage early game, one that would make you automatically lose an even lane. A runepage is about 1000g worth of stats right from the start of the game, saying it's small is underselling it quite a bit. Also while I mentionned runes, it's not the only system in place, masteries also make a huge difference overall, lvl 1 vs lvl 30 is not even close to a fair match.

From the looks of it, crafting works like this, you have a common, a rare and a legendary modifier. Crafting something gives between common and rare depending on your luck and costs a flat 40 ores per craft(you get about 6-8ores per game, regardless of winning or losing). So crafting for rare mods seem fairly viable. The common bonus is a bonus that further increase the value given by the item but by a fairly small amount. Say you have an item recipe that gives +10power, the common bonus would make it give 12 instead(it is a 20% increase, but still only 2power and that's only the bonus of the item, not the total value which is base items+bonus). Numbers seem to be random so recrafting might get you more or less. The rare bonus is a bonus that is the same on every item, there's a pool of general bonus like +1-5% power, +1-5% health regen and so on. You need to roll the one you want but these bonuses seem to offer a fair amount of power in the lategame if you have multiple items and stack the related stats. These are similar to masteries. Then you have the legendary effect, which tends to put a new effect or change the existing effect of items, these have varying strength depending on the item. These also require tempering apparently(might be able to craft a legendary directly not sure) and tempering is the shitty one. Still the effect aren't stuff that would make the item suddenly overpowered.

In terms of time spent to craft basic items, it's probably less than it takes to reach lvl 30 in LoL without IP boosts. If anything, it's the same. It takes a fairly large amount of games to reach 30(or did last time I played but doubt they changed that), about 200 or so iirc. The redeeming feature is you play people at the same level(roughly) as you do.

Not saying it's not worse in terms of monetization/P2W stuff, but in terms of relative power, I hardly see how it's any different other than the fact the current matchmaking in this doesn't take into account your item level at all so it's like playing russian roulette. Saying you played against people with full runes cause you queued with gold 5 players doesn't really help your case either, sounds like being carried by much better players stomping newb tier due to queuing with a low level so the difference wouldn't be necessarily obvious. But take one friend that you know isn't too much worse than you, make a new account and 1vs1 him with your blank account with an even lane. See how it turns out.