Super Mario Odyssey

gshurik

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Filler would be when Bravely Default makes you replay the game again. Optional content is content.

Exactly. Filler content is content added specifically to artificially lengthen gameplay. SMO follows a narrative that is designed to have you check out each level, get to grips with it and get a few moons. Then you move on to the next level. It keeps the momentum building throughout the game so players don't get bogged down by trying to 100% complete a map on the first pass.

It's trying to get you to experience all the different parts of the game at a decent momentum, whilst leaving room for post game exploration for people who enjoy that kind of thing.
 

pharmakos

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this stuff has been pretty standard trope for the genre for, what, 15-20 years? this debate is kind of baffling.
 

Utnayan

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It has nothing to do with this being a switch game and everything to do with linear progression and not constant and cheap reuse of existing assets we have already played though. Mario 64 had 120 stars, most of which all of them could be achieved by getting while they were in the map for the first time (If not all of them) leading to a very well paced platformer. That isn't frustration. That is fun. 90% of SM64, when you were done, was fresh content done once.

Now here comes SMO. 50% of this game is going to the same places you already were before and seeing which nook or cranny you missed so you can see the new levels to get to the "optional" meat of the game people care about. That isn't fun. That's frustration. You say it rewards that game play and those levels are optional, in a game where playing through levels and their unique design is why people buy it. I wouldn't call that optional.

There isn't anyone I have ever spoken to in my lifetime of gaming of when bringing up the new Mario game of whatever console it was on saying, "I cannot wait to collect those stars and moons!"... It was always, "I cannot wait to see the new creative platforming levels... they always come up with something good and it's a blast to play!"

Collections are a way to get to the meat of the game they care about. Not the other way around.

I won't knock you if that's why you play it... All the power to you. Saying it's objectively wrong is silly.
 
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gshurik

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this stuff has been pretty standard trope for the genre for, what, 15-20 years? this debate is kind of baffling.

It's a Nintendo game so Utnayan has to find a problem with it. If this was "Crash Bandicoot explorey fun time (featuring real Andrew House cock to suck)" Utnayan would be slobbering all over it.

The initial point I was making was that I just don't understand people who are mad that there's this extra content in the game that is 100% completely optional and they don't want to do it, but are annoyed that they don't have 100% completion files I suppose.
 
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gshurik

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It has nothing to do with this being a switch game and everything to do with linear progression and not constant and cheap reuse of existing assets we have already played though. Mario 64 had 120 stars, most of which all of them could be achieved by getting while they were in the map for the first time (If not all of them) leading to a very well paced platformer. That isn't frustration. That is fun. 90% of SM64, when you were done, was fresh content done once.

Now here comes SMO. 50% of this game is going to the same places you already were before and seeing which nook or cranny you missed so you can see the new levels to get to the "optional" meat of the game people care about. That isn't fun. That's frustration. You say it rewards that game play and those levels are optional, in a game where playing through levels and their unique design is why people buy it. I wouldn't call that optional.

There isn't anyone I have ever spoken to in my lifetime of gaming of when bringing up the new Mario game of whatever console it was on saying, "I cannot wait to collect those stars and moons!"... It was always, "I cannot wait to see the new creative platforming levels... they always come up with something good and it's a blast to play!"

Collections are a way to get to the meat of the game they care about. Not the other way around.

I won't knock you if that's why you play it... All the power to you. Saying it's objectively wrong is silly.

But it's objectively not filler content. So you're still objectively wrong.
 
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pharmakos

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would the game feel too short if the extra moons were taken out? if they had never been there in the first place, would anyone have anything to complain about? i have not beaten the game so idk, but i agree that i just don't see how extra content can be bad.
 

Utnayan

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would the game be better if they just took the extra moons out?

Honestly, yes. There was plenty of fun platforming there to limit the amount of Moons needed to unlock the final two levels, and pace through the others in a more efficient way. Do that, and you have a less frustrating game in trying to get to what you wanted to play anyway, the new levels. Easily 12 hours of content and streamlining that experience, and it would have been a lot better off in the duldrum department where the last 50% of the game is just running around looking behind a tree you missed on a map you have already been too.
 
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gshurik

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would the game feel too short if the extra moons were taken out? if they had never been there in the first place, would anyone have anything to complain about? i have not beaten the game so idk, but i agree that i just don't see how extra content can be bad.

It's about 10-15 hours without the optional stuff, just to get from the beginning to the final fight. Maybe add another 5 hours on top if you want to do the two optional levels.

Post game stuff is probably around 10-15 hours worth depending on competency I guess.
 

Bruuce

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The point is to have you return to previous areas and collect the things you missed and do different types of content (races being one type). Calling all backtracking filler is retarded.

Yeah idk man. If you feel like unlocking an npc in a level you have already played through and fully explored, that you then have to footrace 2x through a level youve already played through and fully explored is content, you have a wild idea of what content is. I am actually jealous of you that you get get any type of enjoyment from this game after you completed the story. For me it felt like an extremely tedious grind to unlock those last 2 levels and once I completed those(which were extremely underwhelming) I have not turned the game on ever since.
 
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Utnayan

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But it's objectively not filler content. So you're still objectively wrong.

No. And maybe this will help you understand? Not sure how else to explain it to you.

In this article, equate Moons with Ubisoft's/WB's mundane side quests.

Stop Filling Your Open World Games With Filler Content - OnlySP

You continue to call that content. It's filler. I am defining filler as something particularly easy to create and over-saturate in the design of a game (In this case, placing little moons all over a map behind things) Content would be the level design of Mario Odyssey itself.
 
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gshurik

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Honestly, yes. There was plenty of fun platforming there to limit the amount of Moons needed to unlock the final two levels, and pace through the others in a more efficient way. Do that, and you have a less frustrating game in trying to get to what you wanted to play anyway, the new levels. Easily 12 hours of content and streamlining that experience, and it would have been a lot better off in the duldrum department where the last 50% of the game is just running around looking behind a tree you missed on a map you have already been too.

You do realise you can use coins to pinpoint every single moon right? You can have them show up on the map if you don't want to explore. You can even use the hint parrot character if you want to find them yourself but need a hint.

The difficulty in getting the final moons is that the content can be challenging, not the finding of the content as there's features in the game to help you with that.
 

Utnayan

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You do realise you can use coins to pinpoint every single moon right? You can have them show up on the map if you don't want to explore.

I want to explore. What I don't want to do is explore an area fully, then go back to the same area hours later because a small cliff can now be climbed. You don't call that second part exploring do you?
 

gshurik

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No. And maybe this will help you understand? Not sure how else to explain it to you.

In this article, equate Moons with Ubisoft's/WB's mundane side quests.

Stop Filling Your Open World Games With Filler Content - OnlySP

Apples and oranges seeing as all that content factors into the development of a character through exp or equipment. Collecting items in a collectathon is exactly what you sign up for. This is the same argument Nuts and Bolts made years ago, and flopped right after. People go into a collectathon wanting to collect things.

Mario Odyssey was always sold on that principle.
 

gshurik

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I want to explore. What I don't want to do is explore an area fully, then go back to the same area hours later because a small cliff can now be climbed. You don't call that second part exploring do you?

So you want to explore but you don't want to explore because that's frustrating?

And yeah? If that area has a ton of new content to do in it, you are indeed exploring it again.
 

Utnayan

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Apples and oranges seeing as all that content factors into the development of a character through exp or equipment. Collecting items in a collectathon is exactly what you sign up for. This is the same argument Nuts and Bolts made years ago, and flopped right after. People go into a collectathon wanting to collect things.

Mario Odyssey was always sold on that principle.

Here is where we differ. Mario was always sold (And played) as the best platformer series ever. With unique levels and fun/humor design, as it was here in odyssey as well. I never once heard anyone ever say "Woot collectible!"... They just did it because they needed them to get to the next level to see what was next. They aren't playing the game to collect moons and that's their fun. They are doing it because they have to, to get to see and play through the next great level design or area.
 

Utnayan

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Yeah idk man. If you feel like unlocking an npc in a level you have already played through and fully explored, that you then have to footrace 2x through a level youve already played through and fully explored is content, you have a wild idea of what content is. I am actually jealous of you that you get get any type of enjoyment from this game after you completed the story. For me it felt like an extremely tedious grind to unlock those last 2 levels and once I completed those(which were extremely underwhelming) I have not turned the game on ever since.

You and I are on the same page.
 

pharmakos

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I never once heard anyone ever say "Woot collectible!"... They just did it because they needed them to get to the next level to see what was next.

its been a long time, so maybe i'm wrong, but you don't need to collect all the stars in Mario64 to beat the game, do you?
 

gshurik

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Here is where we differ. Mario was always sold (And played) as the best platformer series ever. With unique levels and fun/humor design, as it was here in odyssey as well. I never once heard anyone ever say "Woot collectible!"... They just did it because they needed them to get to the next level to see what was next. They aren't playing the game to collect moons and that's their fun. They are doing it because they have to, to get to see and play through the next great level design or area.

Mario Odyssey was never sold as a primary platformer. They had directs explaining how it was a successor to 64 and Sunshine. They specifically mentioned that several times in fact.