The Astronomy Thread

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Math isnt science. Computer Science used to be math but lately it can be split into two separate sub-fields, one of math and other of science. And programming isnt Computer Science, but a form of engineering. As for physics and applied math, you cant do science without experimentation but you can do applied math without experimentation.

Edit: Also physics is the first science. Maybe even finance because us jews needed that interest rate.

I have always viewed math as (allegedly) the best way to model empirical phenomena. So applied math is the premise that most everything can be mathematically modeled, and then managed, manipulated, or predicted most precisely using that language -- the language of maths.

You say you can do applied math without experimentation, but don't you have to eventually test whether the model matches up to observational sceince? Or did you not mean to say "applied"?
 

Asshat wormie

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I have always viewed math as (allegedly) the best way to model empirical phenomena. So applied math is the premise that most everything can be mathematically modeled, and then managed, manipulated, or predicted most precisely using that language -- the language of maths.

You say you can do applied math without experimentation, but don't you have to eventually test whether the model matches up to observational sceince? Or did you not mean to say "applied"?
When you study an experiment using mathematics, you are studying the experiment. If you instead study the mathematical structures of the model you used in your experiment, then you are doing mathematics.
 
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Serpens

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203341
 
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BrutulTM

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I'd love to see Trump try to capitalize on SpaceX and push for many billions of USD to get a man on Mars before the end of his second term.

That would be an excellent way to get people to say that space exploration is racist somehow.

They could just design the fairings out of material that would resist saltwater corrosion. Even if that triples the cost of the fairings it would be cheaper than what they've already planned.

They thought of doing something similar for the shuttle's SRB's but that wouldve been way too expensive, but the fairings themselves aren't that bad.

Better get on the horn and let them know that you solved their problem.
 
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Vanessa

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I'm sure a couple of you more learned folks about space and the cosmos can talk with me about this as it's more fun to type out a real question here and interact instead of just googling my way to victory. Plus I'm sure a few you have read some standards of literature like A Brief History Of Time etc.

So I understand what a black hole is better than your rando Joe out there. What I'm curious about is some things that I have assumptions of, but want to know if I'm on the right track or off-base.

1) Black holes size is determinate by how much matter has been drawn into it, correct? (or, to start, the size of the collapsing star that formed it to begin with of course)
2) But as more matter is drawn into it and pulled past the event horizon, it *does* grow bigger, correct?
3) Or, is this the part where they say Einsteinian physics breaks down and we simply don't know what happens once past the event horizon?
4) If it's nothing special (i.e. wormholes, tesseracts and sci-fi type of speculatory happenstances) and matter just keeps being packed onto matter and the black hole grows in size, would that mean that even past the event horizon that Einsteinian physics applies? Or is it, again, we just don't really know?
5) What is the relationship between black holes and dark matter? What's the general leading hypothesis of how they interact (or don't)?
 

Asshat wormie

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Size is not mass. Understanding that distinction should answer half your questions. And I don't think Einstein said anything that may lead to understanding what may happen at a singularly, only about the effect the mass of a black hole has on space.
 
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iannis

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1)yeah. It's why they talk about solar masses. It's also important to think about energy density. There's a thing hypothesized called a kugleblitz black hole that is formed out of energy or radiation, not matter. If a substance interacts with spacetime then in theory there is some concentration at which that substance can achieve sufficient density to warp spacetime the way we see matter warp it with black hol es.
2) you sure would think so. Their radius depends on the density of energy inside that radius. As that increases so would the radius. It brings up a few big picture problems that hawking, susskind, and many others spent a time formulating rigid answers to. Weird things like virtual particle pairs forming at the horizon and a black hole being some sort of reality generator in a sense, how they radiate energy, holographic firewalls to satisfy the information paradox of their blackness.
3) the black hole is the radius. What's inside, whatever it is, doesn't exist for us. It could be full of cotton candy and unicorns. Relativity doesn't even break, as such. You're not just approaching infinity, you're at infinity, so the questions become meaningless. unless you get more clever about formulating questions. It's not a theoretical boundary, it's a very real boundary. It's like division by zero. X/0 is possible, that's not why we don't do it. We don't do /0 because any number will solve it. It's indeterminite. What's the point of view of a photon? It doesn't have one, because it doesn't experience time. There are bad questions.
4) that radius denotes an area of change. Black holes shouldn't grow quickly, even if we naively assume they don't radiate. Think about the ratio. You're considering density, which is mass over volume. Mass has to grow faster than volume, volume is a cube. unless you're feeding a black hole to another black hole -- but that's supposed to explode mostly. Mass is kind of tricky, really. We're using it to mean "stuffness", but that's a big more vague than physicists prefer. ius good enough for me though. But yes, outside einstein. Inside we can't know. We can guess and susskind thinks that in principle we can find out if we need to (I don't mean humans, I mean the universe) Einstein was intentionally describing the outside, so we have no business considering that a failure. He published two papers later in his career about the inside which is where the idea of wormholes come from. Information can't pass through Einstein's wormholes though.
5) youd have to assume it's the same relationship as between dark matter and normal old matter. Dark matter reacts gravitationally, weakly. Can dark matter pass into and out of the event horizon? Well, if it can and you can prove it can, you've just proven that Einstein missed something. Since gravity indicates a curvature in spacetime, and the event horizon is the location at which spacetime folds back on itself (all degrees of freedom lead to the same point) if there is matter (stuffness) which can sidestep that -- you've proven a new aspect of reality. at least a degree of freedom uninhibited by spacetime, which seems like the same thing. A new dimension. I'm going to guess dark matter that crosses the horizon stays crossed. If there's stuff that doesn't we probably cannot empiracilly confirm it's existence.
 
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Mudcrush Durtfeet

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I'm sure a couple of you more learned folks about space and the cosmos can talk with me about this as it's more fun to type out a real question here and interact instead of just googling my way to victory. Plus I'm sure a few you have read some standards of literature like A Brief History Of Time etc.

So I understand what a black hole is better than your rando Joe out there. What I'm curious about is some things that I have assumptions of, but want to know if I'm on the right track or off-base.

1) Black holes size is determinate by how much matter has been drawn into it, correct? (or, to start, the size of the collapsing star that formed it to begin with of course)
2) But as more matter is drawn into it and pulled past the event horizon, it *does* grow bigger, correct?
3) Or, is this the part where they say Einsteinian physics breaks down and we simply don't know what happens once past the event horizon?
4) If it's nothing special (i.e. wormholes, tesseracts and sci-fi type of speculatory happenstances) and matter just keeps being packed onto matter and the black hole grows in size, would that mean that even past the event horizon that Einsteinian physics applies? Or is it, again, we just don't really know?
5) What is the relationship between black holes and dark matter? What's the general leading hypothesis of how they interact (or don't)?

What most people think of as the size of a black hole is the diameter of its event horizon, which is the sphere defining the point where the escape velocity is equal to the speed of light. Any closer to the actual object, and the escape velocity is higher than the speed of light, and escape is impossible.

The matter inside a black hole is being compressed into a point, is the best I understand, but there may be time dilation effects or other effects that prevent matter from actually being compressed to the point that the mass of the black hole has zero volume. I don't pretend to understand the math and principles involved at that point. Pun intended. :p

***

tldr, a black hole's event horizon's size is generally dependant on the mass of the black hole, the higher the mass, the higher the size.
 
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Mudcrush Durtfeet

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One thing to remember, is that the repulsion between sub atomic particles (neutrons or quarks) is not infinite in strength, so when mass piles on mass, the pressure increases until this point is passed. At that point the pressure forces all the sub atomic particles to compress toward a dimensionless point. I think.
 
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iannis

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I'm sure wormie will call me an uneducated goy idiot. It's actually helpful in pointing out where the conceptions go wrong.

The main one seemed like mass and density.

It's interesting to me, but I have to think it through every time, since I really don't think about it all that often.
 

Asshat wormie

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I'm sure wormie will call me an uneducated goy idiot. It's actually helpful in pointing out where the conceptions go wrong.

The main one seemed like mass and density.

It's interesting to me, but I have to think it through every time, since I really don't think about it all that often.
I might call you that if you came in here saying you have some level of understanding of this complex topic and then didn't know the difference between size and mass. But this isn't the case. Plus I don't think I know anything about cosmology that would allow me to call anyone names.
 

Zindan

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Does gravity effect the direction(s) of an explosion in space? As in, would an explosion be perfectly spherical, with all its energy / mass being ejected in every direction equally (and in the same amount in all directions)?

If we're in an infinite space, I guess each of us is the center of our universe, right? =)

Edit: Oh, also. Would there have been gravity existing as a force at the time of the Big Bang?
 

Zindan

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1)yeah. It's why they talk about solar masses. It's also important to think about energy density. There's a thing hypothesized called a kugleblitz black hole that is formed out of energy or radiation, not matter. If a substance interacts with spacetime then in theory there is some concentration at which that substance can achieve sufficient density to warp spacetime the way we see matter warp it with black hol es.
2) you sure would think so. Their radius depends on the density of energy inside that radius. As that increases so would the radius. It brings up a few big picture problems that hawking, susskind, and many others spent a time formulating rigid answers to. Weird things like virtual particle pairs forming at the horizon and a black hole being some sort of reality generator in a sense, how they radiate energy, holographic firewalls to satisfy the information paradox of their blackness.
3) the black hole is the radius. What's inside, whatever it is, doesn't exist for us. It could be full of cotton candy and unicorns. Relativity doesn't even break, as such. You're not just approaching infinity, you're at infinity, so the questions become meaningless. unless you get more clever about formulating questions. It's not a theoretical boundary, it's a very real boundary. It's like division by zero. X/0 is possible, that's not why we don't do it. We don't do /0 because any number will solve it. It's indeterminite. What's the point of view of a photon? It doesn't have one, because it doesn't experience time. There are bad questions.
4) that radius denotes an area of change. Black holes shouldn't grow quickly, even if we naively assume they don't radiate. Think about the ratio. You're considering density, which is mass over volume. Mass has to grow faster than volume, volume is a cube. unless you're feeding a black hole to another black hole -- but that's supposed to explode mostly. Mass is kind of tricky, really. We're using it to mean "stuffness", but that's a big more vague than physicists prefer. ius good enough for me though. But yes, outside einstein. Inside we can't know. We can guess and susskind thinks that in principle we can find out if we need to (I don't mean humans, I mean the universe) Einstein was intentionally describing the outside, so we have no business considering that a failure. He published two papers later in his career about the inside which is where the idea of wormholes come from. Information can't pass through Einstein's wormholes though.
5) youd have to assume it's the same relationship as between dark matter and normal old matter. Dark matter reacts gravitationally, weakly. Can dark matter pass into and out of the event horizon? Well, if it can and you can prove it can, you've just proven that Einstein missed something. Since gravity indicates a curvature in spacetime, and the event horizon is the location at which spacetime folds back on itself (all degrees of freedom lead to the same point) if there is matter (stuffness) which can sidestep that -- you've proven a new aspect of reality. at least a degree of freedom uninhibited by spacetime, which seems like the same thing. A new dimension. I'm going to guess dark matter that crosses the horizon stays crossed. If there's stuff that doesn't we probably cannot empiracilly confirm it's existence.
I would think that information can pass through a wormhole, but that information could change during its passage so that "A" becomes "A+" or even "Z".
 
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Asshat wormie

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Does gravity effect the direction(s) of an explosion in space? As in, would an explosion be perfectly spherical, with all its energy / mass being ejected in every direction equally (and in the same amount in all directions)?

If we're in an infinite space, I guess each of us is the center of our universe, right? =)

Edit: Oh, also. Would there have been gravity existing as a force at the time of the Big Bang?
The mass of the products of an explosion reaction has to be subject to gravity force. However since the mass of these products is usually tiny, especially relative to most celestial objects, and the distance to any such object is large, the magnatude of force of gravity is non existant. So the products should be expelled in all directions uniformly. I imagine thay the energy released during this explosion would act in the same way but I am not 100% certain as I don't understand the field interactions that would take place, if any. (the energy of the explosion that isn't converted entirely into kinetic energy of the products)

And yes we are the center of the universe as long as we are the reference point of the gravitational force we exert on everything that is in the universe.
 
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Vanessa

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Size is not mass. Understanding that distinction should answer half your questions.
I do understand that distinction and understood it before asking my question. The mistake I think I made is not putting a distinction up between the event horizon and the singularity. I just lumped it all into "a black hole" in question #1 and #4. What I'm referring to in regards to size is based on videos such as what Sadre linked below v v

What most people think of as the size of a black hole is the diameter of its event horizon, which is the sphere defining the point where the escape velocity is equal to the speed of light. Any closer to the actual object, and the escape velocity is higher than the speed of light, and escape is impossible.
Yes, this is precisely how I understand it too. The fact there are different "sizes" and "types" of black holes is why I'm asking these questions. It's mindbending and humbling to learn about.

There's a nagging feeling in me that says that black holes should all be the same size, same mass... the fact that they're not is puzzling to me and where my understanding of "what they are" reaches its demise.

Here's a question that even google failed me on: Are singularities all the same size or not?

Because if it's the latter, the implications feel like we're looking at multiple infinities and universes and other kooky shit~
 

Zindan

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My guess is that yes, all singularities are the same size, but the force they exert around them is not. That force, represented by the radius of the event horizon is based on its mass.
 
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Vanessa

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My guess is that yes, all singularities are the same size, but the force they exert around them is not. That force, represented by the radius of the event horizon is based on its mass.
I can wrap my head around singularities being the same universal size (for lack of words) which are infinitely dense but I can't wrap my head around it if singularities are different relative sizes... I just can't... my head asplode.

Where my mind wanders is -why- the diameter of the event horizon is significantly larger with some black holes than in others. You could simply say due to mass, yes, but where is all this mass if singularities are the same size? Just swirling around the Schwarzschild radius for eternity or something? I don't get it... and I think I may lack the words and intellect to describe where this line of thinking takes me. This is exactly why I said that thinking about black holes is a humbling thing.
 

Warmuth

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I can wrap my head around singularities being the same universal size (for lack of words) which are infinitely dense but I can't wrap my head around it if singularities are different relative sizes... I just can't... my head asplode.

Where my mind wanders is -why- the diameter of the event horizon is significantly larger with some black holes than in others. You could simply say due to mass, yes, but where is all this mass if singularities are the same size? Just swirling around the Schwarzschild radius for eternity or something? I don't get it... and I think I may lack the words and intellect to describe where this line of thinking takes me. This is exactly why I said that thinking about black holes is a humbling thing.

I don't think anyone knows if it's an actual singularity or not. Its a catch all term for the spot where everything that enters a black hole will end up. If its infinitely dense and an actual real singularity one can still be more massive than others. Infinities can be larger or smaller than each other. Worm holes and all that shit are consequences of math equations.
 

Melvin

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All of the mass is in the singularity. Density is the ratio of mass per volume: d = m/v. The volume of the singularities inside black holes isn't zero, but it approaches zero (someone correct me if I'm wrong here). The amount of mass can be any huge number and the density is basically infinity. Double the mass and you still have basically infinite density.