The Astronomy Thread

Zindan

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I can wrap my head around singularities being the same universal size (for lack of words) which are infinitely dense but I can't wrap my head around it if singularities are different relative sizes... I just can't... my head asplode.

Where my mind wanders is -why- the diameter of the event horizon is significantly larger with some black holes than in others. You could simply say due to mass, yes, but where is all this mass if singularities are the same size? Just swirling around the Schwarzschild radius for eternity or something? I don't get it... and I think I may lack the words and intellect to describe where this line of thinking takes me. This is exactly why I said that thinking about black holes is a humbling thing.
What has made you consider that singularities can be different "sizes"? I've never once thought of that, to me each one is identical in "size" and their only difference is the scope of the event horizon surrounding them.
 
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Zindan

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All of the mass is in the singularity. Density is the ratio of mass per volume: d = m/v. The volume of the singularities inside black holes isn't zero, but it approaches zero (someone correct me if I'm wrong here). The amount of mass can be any huge number and the density is basically infinity. Double the mass and you still have basically infinite density.
I'm sitting here trying to describe to myself how to remove the definition of volume from a singularity. I probably won't be able too. Though, if something can be infinitely small within an infinitely large space, then the largest event horizon we've noticed so far is certainly dwarfed by something out of our range of detection. Funny.
 

Captain Suave

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but where is all this mass?

if something can be infinitely small

The trick is that mass isn't a concept coupled to volume. Mass is an attribute carried by the Higgs field. What we think of as matter occupies volume due to being dispersed across space by the balance of strong/weak forces vs gravity. Once gravity wins that battle the focus of the Higgs field concentrates in a point. You aren't actually making anything bigger or smaller, you're just changing the distribution of mass over space. (Or maybe space itself concentrates. This is where my pop physics education starts to fail me.)

Matter is 100% empty space. If you could cut open quarks with an infinitely small knife you wouldn't find anything inside them. Matter as we know it is just a phenomenon that occurs when the forces and the Higgs field are balanced within a certain range. It's just different forms of energy repelling and attracting each other, all the way down. That's why E=mc^2, and why particle physicists measure masses in units of energy.

(It's easy enough for me to type this, but it's a complete mindfuck when you think about it in practical terms.)

how to remove the definition of volume from a singularity

Density = mass / volume. From an outside observer's perspective, volume is not "removed", exactly. The term just becomes 0 as the mass concentrates due to gravity overwhelming everything else. Holding volume at 0, you can put however much mass you want at that point. Forces go up and the event horizon expands, but nothing actually gets "bigger" due to the addition of more mass because mass does not require or carry space.

From the perspective inside the singularity gravity literally destroys the X, Y, Z, and time dimensions from spacetime and "volume" has no meaning.
 
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Captain Suave

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I have always viewed math as (allegedly) the best way to model empirical phenomena. So applied math is the premise that most everything can be mathematically modeled, and then managed, manipulated, or predicted most precisely using that language -- the language of maths.

You should read this book. Tegmark's basic idea is that at the core, reality actually IS math in the most fundamental sense.

Our Mathematical Universe
 
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BrutulTM

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The good news is that understanding or not understanding this shit will almost certainly not affect your life in any way. I choose to not know anything about black holes in order to save valuable real estate in my brain to help me remember the names of my favorite porn stars.
 
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This thread kicks ass.

Thnx for the Tegman recommendation Cpt. Suave.

As to the singularity vs event horizon thing, I can understand the event horizon somewhat, but the singularity just baffles me. The event horizon is an expression of the mass and density of the black hole, the radius where escape velocity becomes > c.

But the fact that that the EH is only the beginning of how strange these objects are, just blows me away.
 

Zindan

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The trick is that mass isn't a concept coupled to volume. Mass is an attribute carried by the Higgs field. What we think of as matter occupies volume due to being dispersed across space by the balance of strong/weak forces vs gravity. Once gravity wins that battle the focus of the Higgs field concentrates in a point. You aren't actually making anything bigger or smaller, you're just changing the distribution of mass over space. (Or maybe space itself concentrates. This is where my pop physics education starts to fail me.)

Matter is 100% empty space. If you could cut open quarks with an infinitely small knife you wouldn't find anything inside them. Matter as we know it is just a phenomenon that occurs when the forces and the Higgs field are balanced within a certain range. It's just different forms of energy repelling and attracting each other, all the way down. That's why E=mc^2, and why particle physicists measure masses in units of energy.

(It's easy enough for me to type this, but it's a complete mindfuck when you think about it in practical terms.)



Density = mass / volume. From an outside observer's perspective, volume is not "removed", exactly. The term just becomes 0 as the mass concentrates due to gravity overwhelming everything else. Holding volume at 0, you can put however much mass you want at that point. Forces go up and the event horizon expands, but nothing actually gets "bigger" due to the addition of more mass because mass does not require or carry space.

From the perspective inside the singularity gravity literally destroys the X, Y, Z, and time dimensions from spacetime and "volume" has no meaning.
Ok good. That makes a lot more sense to me, thank you.
 

Ukerric

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1) Black holes size is determinate by how much matter has been drawn into it, correct? (or, to start, the size of the collapsing star that formed it to begin with of course)
The Schwartzchild radius of the a non-spinning black hole event horizon is a function of its mass, and nothing else. Black holes are defined by exactly three parameters: mass, rotation and charge. Know those three, everything else around them is deductible from that. Iannis mentioned a kugelblitz which is formed from energy instead of matter, with the e=mc2 usual equivalence, but that falls under the general case of mass. In theory, you can't determine, from observing a black hole, what specific mass came into its "composition". Just the total amount.

Which is where those quantum physicists start tearing their hair, since information cannot be destroyed in quantum physics, except it appears to be when shoveled into a black hole.

(oh, and a rotating blackhole is not exactly spherical)
2) But as more matter is drawn into it and pulled past the event horizon, it *does* grow bigger, correct?
Yes.
3) Or, is this the part where they say Einsteinian physics breaks down and we simply don't know what happens once past the event horizon?
4) If it's nothing special (i.e. wormholes, tesseracts and sci-fi type of speculatory happenstances) and matter just keeps being packed onto matter and the black hole grows in size, would that mean that even past the event horizon that Einsteinian physics applies? Or is it, again, we just don't really know?
We don't really know how physics exactly work beyond an event horizon since nothing that happens inside is measurable outside. But as far as we know, the physics inside a blackhole don't seem to matter to the physics outside one.
that radius denotes an area of change. Black holes shouldn't grow quickly, even if we naively assume they don't radiate. Think about the ratio. You're considering density, which is mass over volume. Mass has to grow faster than volume, volume is a cube.
Fun fact is that the Schwartzchild radius equation is linear with mass. radius = M x 2G/c2. Double the mass, double the radius of the black hole. That's why the "imaged" black hole is so huge, despite being "only" a few hundred billion masses of the sun.
5) What is the relationship between black holes and dark matter? What's the general leading hypothesis of how they interact (or don't)?
Since no one knows what dark matter exactly is...

(cf the recent observation of a second galaxy that appears to have zero dark matter in it)
One thing to remember, is that the repulsion between sub atomic particles (neutrons or quarks) is not infinite in strength, so when mass piles on mass, the pressure increases until this point is passed. At that point the pressure forces all the sub atomic particles to compress toward a dimensionless point. I think.
That's the neutron star limit. Neutron stars can't be bigger than about 3 solar masses. At that point, the quantum physics that prevent neutrons from being in the same place are overtaken, the quarks start to pile up and you cross the Schwarzchild radius, and boom: you go black hole.
 

LachiusTZ

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The matter falls into the black hole, the light from that matter stalls out.

That's why things never appear to fall in, but in fact they do
 

Vanessa

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The matter falls into the black hole, the light from that matter stalls out.

That's why things never appear to fall in, but in fact they do
Ya, I'm passed that point LoL... I can wrap my head around what is happening outside a black hole... it's past the event horizon that bakes my noodle.
What has made you consider that singularities can be different "sizes"? I've never once thought of that, to me each one is identical in "size" and their only difference is the scope of the event horizon surrounding them.
Just due to the fact that I cannot separate volume from matter. This may be due to being unable to truly comprehend infinity. I know the concept of infinity, but I don't understand infinity and never will tbh. So because I'll never understand infinity, I can't understand how matter can have no volume and therefore can't rationalize that you can pack an infinite amount of matter, of "stuff" into a suitcase and literally just keep packing more stuff in the same suitcase without the suitcase getting bigger. If my brain could actually comprehend that, then I could comprehend all singularities being the same size, yet have differing mass and therefore have smaller or larger diameters of the event horizon.

To me, it makes more "comfortable sense" (if you know what I mean) that the singularity as I understand it also expands in size... that we just 'think' and hypothesize that the singularity is infinitely small/large but even IT does in fact have a finite measurement to it and, even though even photons themselves can't escape it's gravity, it's still not infinitely small/large... that we're still just packing on layer after layer of matter or particles or quarks or whatever matter or "stuff" is :p we just don't know it's there because every piece of information that is used by us to detect it is pulled in... but it's not infinitely small/large and has size / mass as we understand such things with normal physics.

Matter is 100% empty space. If you could cut open quarks with an infinitely small knife you wouldn't find anything inside them. Matter as we know it is just a phenomenon that occurs when the forces and the Higgs field are balanced within a certain range. It's just different forms of energy repelling and attracting each other, all the way down. That's why E=mc^2, and why particle physicists measure masses in units of energy.

(It's easy enough for me to type this, but it's a complete mindfuck when you think about it in practical terms.)
Yeah, this just mindfucks me, sorry LoL... but it's fun to think about. Thanks for the explanation btw.
 
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Tuco

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A few months old but I had never seen it. I'm really surprised the speed at which the fairing descends is so low and the speed parallel to the ground is so high. I wonder if the job of captaining that ship is the most fun sea-captaining job of all time. You're basically pulling off a Jack Sparrow every time you land it (if you ever do, lol).
 
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Captain Suave

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A few months old but I had never seen it. I'm really surprised the speed at which the fairing descends is so low and the speed parallel to the ground is so high. I wonder if the job of captaining that ship is the most fun sea-captaining job of all time. You're basically pulling off a Jack Sparrow every time you land it (if you ever do, lol).

Cool. Looks like what they need is to put a sport parasail on the fairing with some motors and a remote control and have some RedBull athlete on the ship fly it down, and get RedBull to sponsor the launch.
 

Tuco

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Cool. Looks like what they need is to put a sport parasail on the fairing with some motors and a remote control and have some RedBull athlete on the ship fly it down, and get RedBull to sponsor the launch.
This feels totally possible.
 
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khorum

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Speaking of sails, the next Falcon Heavy mission is pretty fucking cool for a number of reasons. One of which is the smallest payload on there... it was kickstarted and it's technically a real reactionless propulsion system:


But it's gonna go up on the Falcon HEAVY and the whole mission package is like a foot an half long. That's cuz it's an Air Force mission and they've got a whole bunch of OTHER satellites going up along with the Air Force payload. The Lightsail2 is prolly on there for cheap but the others include some private and scientific satellites. It turns out the Air Force rented out the space for its mission.

If the Falcon Heavy gets cheaper and cheaper and the Air Force already still has flights contracted years in advance, it's feasible they'd actually come out ahead if they keep leasing out part of their launch payload to private missions.
 
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meStevo

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After a successful landing, SpaceX was unable to keep this last Falcon Heavy core on the droneship due to rough seas.

 
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Captain Suave

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After a successful landing, SpaceX was unable to keep this last Falcon Heavy core on the droneship due to rough seas.


Bummer.

I did always wonder how they were going to deal with this issue. Chop at sea is inevitable.

I have a cousin who works at SpaceX. I'll ask and see if he'll share how they plan to handle this in the future.

He gave me a tour of their factory in Hawthorne a couple years ago. Coolest. Fucking. Place. Ever. Major nerdgasm.
 
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Kiroy

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After a successful landing, SpaceX was unable to keep this last Falcon Heavy core on the droneship due to rough seas.


not sure why they don't have a barge with large crane that could pop the thing onto it's side so it could be properly secured

how the hell did they scuttle the thing or did they just abandon the barge and let it fall over on it's own?
 

khorum

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they used to have ppl weld the feet onto the droneship's pads after it landed. Or put a clamp over the feet and weld them onto the deck. Something like that, there was some dude welding them down.