The Benefits of Socialism

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Palum

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So there exists things that can be turned into a government service for the purposes of regulation that you do not object to?

No. The government sucks at everything.

But me objecting to it doesn't mean it's suddenly socialism.
 
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Ratina

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You are agreeing to the idea that socializing one thing is far apart from socializing everything then?

Talking about the facts and the numbers are totally a thing, but just conceptually socializing something doesn't HAVE to lead to just be because "someone who wants socialism either wants free stuff ... or they are better off than they would be and they are misguided fools who don't think rationally with a world view that's comprehensive. "

If we could all pay $5 a year and everyone had unlimited free healthcare you, and every other rational person would say its a good idea. Socializing any 'thing' could be a bad idea, or could be a good idea, but its not automatically bad just because the word socialism.
 
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Aaron

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qcxe7gN.jpg
 
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Campbell1oo4

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If we could all pay $5 a year and everyone had unlimited free healthcare you, and every other rational person would say its a good idea.

Not even true.

What doctors are going to work in the national healthcare industry?

From where will they be paid?

What if they want to work private practice and make their own rates? Are you going to force them to work for the public?
 
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mkopec

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You are agreeing to the idea that socializing one thing is far apart from socializing everything then?

Talking about the facts and the numbers are totally a thing, but just conceptually socializing something doesn't HAVE to lead to just be because "someone who wants socialism either wants free stuff ... or they are better off than they would be and they are misguided fools who don't think rationally with a world view that's comprehensive. "

If we could all pay $5 a year and everyone had unlimited free healthcare you, and every other rational person would say its a good idea. Socializing any 'thing' could be a bad idea, or could be a good idea, but its not automatically bad just because the word socialism.

Take for an example any union shop, there is your microcosm of what socializing anything is like. You take away merit based advancement and replace it with seniority. Incentives for hard work go out the window. Why should anyone work harder than the person next to him, if after all his advancement, and pay, is only as good as the seniority level within that company? Take that one step further into socialized shop, and you will see one wage for all, fair pay for work for all that work there. Absolutely no incentive to be a standout, to work harder than the person next to you, to improve or to innovate any systems on the job. And there goes the innovation out the window. Why should anyone improve anything if you dont get rewarded for it? In fact the person which innovates or works harder than the rest, gets knocked the fuck back down by other workers, because as long as quotas are met, shop runs fine, and fuck working harder to make more widgets, or gum, we all still get paid the same and our jobs remain secure? Right? and even those that do want to improve shit, work harder, eventually realize its a lost cause, because, again, no incentives.

So there it is, your gum factory is churning out one flavor gum for its entire existence, because other socialized gum factories are doing the same. No strawberry xylotol gum for you.

You know what the best job in a union shop is? To be the night janitor/custodian. Its the pinnacle job in any union shop that only the most senior people get. My wifes old man (rest his soul) told me this after working for union for 30 yrs. He got in, cleaned up the shit he needed to, went home, got drunk, went back to punch out.
 
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Kreugen

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Pretty admirable from a guy who grew up in an orphanage and worked for everything he has. He's a real inspiration.
 
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Lithose

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Any rational argument gets drowned out with memes and buzzwords so fast there's no chance. Past that I would love to have an honest conversation with intelligent people who disagree with my worldview.

I think a big problem is people wont be critical of people or arguments from their own side, take that Chowder vid for example. His argument for why Democratic Socialism and Socialism are the same thing is terrible. Uses a Sanders soundbite from a debate to use as his counter definition, then attacks that definition because Sanders didn't really answer the question, he just pivoted into a slogan instead of explaining it. But here's the thing, everyone's statements from all debates are just pivots to slogans, you've watched debates before you remember how annoying it was when no one ever actually answers the moderators questions just so they can find a way to get in a soundbite. If I agreed with that guy that video would piss me off.

Would you agree with the assessment that saying someone who wants Socialism just wants free stuff is as poor an argument as anyone who supports Trump is a white supremacist? Its impossible with so many people in both camps that either one is completely filed with stupid people, that means there are intelligent, rational people who disagree with you. Don't you want to know why?

Personally I think at this point in Human evolution we need more socialism to correct problems that capitalism has caused. Sacred cows need to be killed (on both sides) and I think transitioning some things into central public control are the best ways to kill those cows.

Obviously there is a ton of detail and nuance that 2 sentences will never convey, but no one gets past the 'you are just a retarded cuck' argument to explain to me why doing things the way you want them done will be better for us then doing them the way i want to do them.

Human evolution is the reason why socialism beyond a certain scale doesn't work. Your ape brain was literally not designed, nor does it have the capacity to make the system efficient or asses enough high quality communication to do so. Your brain is literally not good enough for socialism, you don't have the processing power for it. (Beyond a certain size, and complexity).

This is why simplistic socialist systems, like a Kibbutz or an Amish community, or a small co-op, succeed, while more complex systems fail. I can go into this more if you'd like to genuinely debate it. Especially because it will illustrate what a dip shit @Picasso3 is, and how he's under the effect of selection bias--given I have debated this many times, and other subjects and all Picasso can read is SJW shit, because he's dumb.

That said, would you like to know more?
 
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Lithose

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Lets see if we can come to an agreement on what socialism means.

To me, socialism is taking a 'thing' and putting under collective control. 99 out of 100 times this collective control will be a government but its not strictly required. Remember when Reagan federalized the air traffic controllers? That's the type of socialism i'm talking about. The fact that I am better off paying x$'s into taxes so a collective hired to specifically to manage the 'thing' and can use the resources in ways the individual never can. If you could personally ah la cart your taxes, or if States had the responsibility of forming and maintaining a military, or a postal service, or public works, whatever; you would never have stealth bombers or e-mail. Some things are just better when controlled in a socialized manner, not everything, but some things.

Public goods are elements of Capitalism that have existed as concepts since the system was effectively discussed with the rise of private property as a renewed concept. Really you could argue Socialism grew from this element in Capitalism. But I'd say you'd need to make a distinction between public goods and socialism. It's not always an easy thing on an individual level, but as for broader concepts, any debate should be able to delineate them fairly easily. In addition, they shouldn't affect our debate that much--given I'm going to use a communication based argument on why socialism fails.
 
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