The Elder Scrolls Online
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Tarrant
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Wrong.
They are obsessed with raids because they are mindless sheep, and every MMO has conditioned them to rush to the end game, beg to join whichever guild, go on raids - get the best gear in the game, and they have won. That's how most people think.
It's just Skyrim, there's no big debate. Looks like exactly the same game but with slightly better combat and slightly bigger and more varied world.
Tarrant
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you do what you can do in every game you play to get the best gear possible? I'm not even a raider any more, haven't been since like 2006 but it's an enjoyable thing to do with a group of like minded people.
I don't get the sheep comment either, Most encoutners even in WoW are now so tightly wound that you're anything but a sheep, everyone needs to be pretty much perfect for the whole encounter.
Sounds like you are bitter towards the raiders. Sorry to hear.
Much like anything in life people find enjoyment in different ways from different things. It usually takes a pretty douchey person to think that their way to have fun should be the only way people have fun.
My comment about no targeting works just as well for 5 man grouping as well. I don't know how many imes in Skyrim there were guards fighting a dragon and I had splash damage hit one of them and suddendly they die and now I have a bounty on my head. Doesn't seem like a very good system for regular grouping let alone raiding.
Tarrant
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In games like EQ, it took real skill to go to a tough place in a tough dungeon, with a bunch of none raid geared people who you don't even know, and pull it off. Things would go wrong, good groups would turn it around, etc. Upcoming encounters that looked hard, groups would talk about the best way to deal with it and then eventually put their plan in to motion, etc..
Those are the types of players I respect. The average raid kiddie, they grind their way to max level by only going along the path of absolute least resistance. Then as soon as they ding max level, they get whisked off to some raid content with their guild. The guild leaders make all the decisions. The strategy is told to them either by someone who has done it before, or by someone who just read it on the web. And then they all spam out their routine and then hope they get some loot. Repeat that dumbass mindless process enough times, and you have a full set of the best gear in the game.
It might be the best gear but it doesn't mean you are a good player. The good players were busy trying to make a 4 man group work in some dungeon or trying to get by with necro pet as tank or something. Or going somewhere they had never been before. Generally being smart and cool and pushing themselves and all that good stuff the average sheepy raid would think is geyyy.
Because they ride along on the coat tails of the guild leaders who put in all the work, while the sheep at the back all stand around picking their nose until they are told what to do.
Yeah ok... I'll admit... some of these people are actually good players, and some of them did the good stuff I described above AND the raid stuff. But in my experience, the majority of these people are sheepy idiots who guild hop around looking to be spoon fed success. And then when you take them out of a raid situation and put them in a real group where they aren't told exactly what to do and where to stand, they expose their true incompetence.
Not bitter at raiders, annoyed at games that pander to these types of people. WoW being the prime example, making it's levelling 'journey' in to a short and disposable trip that anyone can do in no time. And then the raid content can be won by anyone with stolen strats or trial and error - because error is inconsequential unlike failed attempts at Fear in EQ which left 50 dead people with exp loss and item loss if they didn't go and get their stuff back.
In another situation would be right. But in this case, you aren't, because it makes absolutely no sense making an MMO when you then go and just spoon feed the best stuff to shittiest people through finely balanced McRaid happy meals. Like I said somewhere before, if you are going to do that, may as well just make a new genre, some kind of MOBA type thing where you just make one multiplayer game that throws everyone together to do the same type of thing over and over. A pure raid generator. May as well do that because those people have absolutely no interest in doing anything else. And maybe if they all pissed off to "World of Raidz", it would leave the MMO genre to the people who it was designed for in the first place, to play what it was always meant to be - which was a virtual world with all kinds of problems to overcome. But those people aren't being catered to anymore, because their voices are drowned out by the 20 million WoW plebs.
Well to be honest I barely know anything about this game at all. Only thing I've seen was some video I watched briefly a day or two ago. But given that I thought Skyrim was total shit with just a handful of crappy spells that paused the game when you switched, and only 2 styles of landscape in the entire world, this looked like more or less the same just a bit better. And as the genre is otherwise so horrible, even this rises to the top.
Tarrant
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There's so much wrong with the above post I don't even know where to begin, so I wont. You obviously aren't going to change your mind on how you feel which is fine (if not short sighted and ignorant) but millions of others would disagree with you. Myself being one of them.
Tarrant
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And in none of your totally wasted time of a rant about the evils of raiders did you come close to answering my question and concern by a lack of a target system in a game where it's just as easy to hurt friendly targets as it is unfriendly and much fo the time totally unavoidable to do both of those at the same time.
Big deal. Millions of people take their date to mcdonalds while listening to justin beiber on their ipods, doesn't mean I have to be a dumbass too.
Besides, I'm not totally against raiding, I've done a lot of it and I even enjoy it on occasion. But it's just handled in such a lame way by almost every game I've played. The only time I've seen REALLY good raiding was on private servers which is something I doubt you have ever even played.
I ignored it on purpose because I doubt there will even be serious raiding in this game. And the target system makes no difference anyway - just don't stand too close to your guildmates when you shake your weapons, problem solved.
Anyone who played old RPG's should know how friendly fire works. It's mostly only an issue for spellcasters with big area fireballs and stuff. But that just gives them something to think about. And thinking is good, you should try it some time.
I can live with quest driven content if its really good like TSW or SWTOR. That's how I figure this game will be, really good fun for 3 weeks, then you're gone. I'm fine with that.
Obviously I would prefer some long term serious MMO, but they are dead.
Obviously I would prefer some long term serious MMO, but they are dead.
Tarrant
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First as far as private servers go, I helped run a couple long ago so again stop with assumptions and generalizations. Not only was that some poor attempt at a dig but it was totally off topic and unreleated to anything we are talking about.
To the quote above, what does raiding have to do with if you are a mage and have two warriors up close dealing damage. With no target system you have to try and fling into combat, or any ranged for that matter. In Skyrim I play a stealthy archer and even with one NPC running in you're going to hit him a few times during even the most basic of combat scenarios. Ranged will be totally gimped in any sort of grouping what so ever if they take the Elderscrolls combat system and don't alter it to make it so either friendlies don't take damage or that spells only hit targets.
I'm fine with you not caring for raids or whatever, I already said as such. It doesn't bug me one bit. You dont find enjoyment out of them. Others do. I don't bag on what people find fun in games. They're games.
WoW servers don't count.
Nuh uh. I say raiding is shit, you say I am raid-phobic, I'm just clarifying I like it on occasion but only rare occasions and only in a framework that you just don't normally see, and wouldn't understand unless you happened to stumble across it like I did. I'm talking about servers with tiny populations with brutal raid content where people spend months trying to figure out just one fight, and when they finally nail it, the strategy for winning because their private secret, and other guilds would do anything to know that knowledge - even sending spies to infiltrate the guild.
And it's also so hard, that you can't even succeed unless you spent a LOT of time doing regular world content and 6 man dungeon content to get appropriate gear and resist gear. So there is no 'leapfrogging'.
Huh? Just run around the back of the mob and shoot it in the ass? What's the big problem.
You can always you know... move? And if the archer in this scenario is a player rather than an AI, then he/she can learn to attack from the side or something. Hardly rocket science.
Not if you move... Really how long does it take to move to the side or something? 5 seconds? This is basic balance stuff. If ranges spend valuable seconds with positioning, then you just give them huge damage to compensate.
You make all this sound like a major problem, to me it actually sounds cool. If it was real life, you wouldn't shoot your buddies in the back, you would shoot above them or move or you would arrange a strategy where they always take 90 degree angles or whatever.
Ehh I don't know, don't care. If they take the Elder Scrolls combat system and don't alter it, I wouldn't want to play it anyway.
But that's the thing, I do enjoy them, but only when they are done well. Which is almost never.
That dungeon today looked beautiful but boring. Another totally linear script-fest. Hard to judge combat before playing it, but the animations look terrible. And whats up with the pointless NPC's with a single dialogue option? I would hire the environment artists to work on my game, not sure anyone else though.
Blackwulf
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I dunno, I watched that video again today, and there's actually a lot of strategy going on that I didn't notice the first time. The mage is porting into the fight to target a certain mob, the team focus kills certain mobs, some of the mobs were healing each other, etc. In one fight one of the goblins notice Nick's character shooting arrows and charged him mid-fight. I mean, yeah, it doesn't seem perfect, but considering it's an MMO, it didn't look bad at all. They have a long time to polish things as well. 8 months for the combat team to tweak shit while the content teams finish up should be a good start. I think a lot of people are going to be pleasantly surprised by this game, but then I've been saying that all along.
Edit: Apparently my earlier link didn't work for some people? It works for me when I click on it:http://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/b/439743009?t=40m49s