The Elder Scrolls Online

Draegan_sl · Mar 12, 2013

You do know all blackwulf is doing is keeping this thread at the top of the list.

sakkath · Mar 12, 2013

Blackwulf_sl said:
Well, there are 6 reasons I am hoping TESO can pull off what WAR failed to do. What do you guys think?

All good points really, but primarily #6. PvPing over PvE objectives is great.

As for 3 factions, it's certainly better than 2 but it's pretty disappointing that it's not FFA. TES is tailor made for FFA PvP, and the 'factions' they've set up are laughable. Half of the races on each team have been at war with/tried to wipe out/enslaved some of their teammates all throughout the history of TES.

Utnayan · Mar 12, 2013

Blackwulf_sl said:
1. WAR only had 2 factions. TESO will have 3 factions, and as much as people laugh at this distinction, I think that 3 factions helps to provide balance in a large scale war.

My opinion is this doesn't matter much, and being at the core still a PvE centric game, it ends up making content inaccessible for 2/3'rds of the side you choose.

2. WAR had RVR mini zones all over the place called "RVR Lakes" - these pulled the action into too many areas, especially on sparsely populated servers. TESO is only going to have one massive place to PVP in, called Cyrodiil - supposedly the same map size as all of Oblivion.

Those RvR lakes are now called objectives where a lot of the RvR will take place. With that said, an entire RvR zone the size of all of Oblivion does not sound appealing. Why do developers, and you, think land mass matters when as we have seen from GW2, part of the downfall of that is the massive amounts of running back to any action that was deemed fun?

3. WAR had instant PVP matches you could queue for from any point in the world. You were instantly teleported into the match and it had nothing to do with the overall war effort. I read a dev statement that said the only pvp in TESO will be in Cyrodiil. This contradicted the early Game Informer article that said there would be arena matches, but I'm hoping GI was full of shit.

There is both. Unfortunately, the dynamics, on a smaller scale with WAR, will have the same effect when the overall war effort (regardless if you are flagged for one instance) is instanced across copies of 2k capped Cyrodil's. All static nature of the overall war effort was lost when they went the metaserver route. The only reason? Cost of consolidation at the expense of what you have said mattered to you.

4. WAR had servers. Many of those servers were ghost towns after the first couple of months. This really killed the pvp population when you add it to points 2 and 3. TESO will have the Megaserver and every instance of Cyrodiil should be populated.

See the answer to number 3. It's good there will be population, but they took the easy and cheap way out in light of instancing and losing static effort on a per server basis. To be fair, it's pretty hard to design around populations and the dynamic that will hit when people flock to a server (or bunch of servers) but losing the static nature of the feeling you get when having an effect on a war on a single server with static results is better than losing all that to instancing the entire thing and making copies of it which will never have anything but a loose feeling when playing knowing that you really aren't having any impact, as once your instance is done being locked, you will just move to another instance and perpetual war and struggle back and forth no longer exists. Unless you are locked to that instance for the suration of your character's life. In which case, that would defeat the purpose of instancing Cyrodil hundreds of times for population control.

5. WAR didn't provide much incentive for RVR - the realm point advancement was fluff that did jack shit. TESO has promised a robust character advancement with 'alliance points.'

We will see how this plays out. Remember the last time DAOC did this it was a gear grind and people quit. There isn't anything new here that hasn't been done a few times in the last decade in various ways.

6. WAR didn't have any PVE going on in the RVR areas. TESO devs claim that there will be a living world in Cyrodiil - villages, quests, dungeons, points of interest, etc. This will draw more action into the pvp area.

Guild Wars 2 did this same thing. It isn't as enticing as any other PvP zone with PvE inside. Have you played GW2?

So what do I think? Sorry in advance in this one, but you sounded like an advertisement again. I realize there is no information out but this is what * is * out, and to draw conclusions on your 6 reasons for thinking TESO online will be better than WAR/DAOC RvR based on those your reasoning that, RvR is three faction instead of 2, it's on a meta server with instancing for people to play with once everyone quits, and has a reward system similar to any other game out there today, well... the post speaks for itself.

sakkath · Mar 12, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
Guild Wars 2 did this same thing. It isn't as enticing as any other PvP zone with PvE inside. Have you played GW2?

Have you played Vanguard, where (when PvP still existed in that game) you would fight other groups over dungeon bosses, quest hubs etc? It was epic, if you ignore all of the bugs/balance issues.

EQ PvP was the same. Kicking enemy groups out of lguk/solb, fighting enemy raids over Nagafen/Vox. Sensational stuff. Even EQ2 had some great PvP back in the KoS days when not all of the endgame content was instanced.

Maybe Cyrodiil will end up as lame as the RvR areas of GW2/war, but hopefully it's more like VG/EQ.

Blackwulf · Mar 12, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
You do know all blackwulf is doing is keeping this thread at the top of the list.

Let's see, one MMO coming near release that I'm at all interested in. Should I post in that thread or talk about EQnext some more, when it's been confirmed that no more info will be released until August. Or how about Camelot Unchained that hasn't even gone to Kickstarter yet? Yeah, sorry for posting in the only MMO thread that is interesting to me atm.

Utnayan_sl said:
So what do I think? Sorry in advance in this one, but you sounded like an advertisement again. I realize there is no information out but this is what * is * out, and to draw conclusions on your 6 reasons for thinking TESO online will be better than WAR/DAOC RvR based on those your reasoning that, RvR is three faction instead of 2, it's on a meta server with instancing for people to play with once everyone quits, and has a reward system similar to any other game out there today, well... the post speaks for itself.

Basically you are a glass half empty guy, and I'm a glass half full guy. Especially with regard to the way the Megaserver will work. I guess we won't know who's right for quite a while.

sakkath_sl said:
Have you played Vanguard, where (when PvP still existed in that game) you would fight other groups over dungeon bosses, quest hubs etc? It was epic, if you ignore all of the bugs/balance issues.

EQ PvP was the same. Kicking enemy groups out of lguk/solb, fighting enemy raids over Nagafen/Vox. Sensational stuff. Even EQ2 had some great PvP back in the KoS days when not all of the endgame content was instanced.

Maybe Cyrodiil will end up as lame as the RvR areas of GW2/war, but hopefully it's more like VG/EQ.

Dude, I can't stress enough how much I miss jumping enemy groups trying to farm some xp in Passage of Conflict in DAOC. Or Darkness Falls. Or just roaming the countryside with my bard friend and taking on full groups who were trying to kill a dragon. DAOC had it right by giving huge incentives for people to go PVE in the RVR areas. It was fun on the other side of the coin too - always on your toes checking the corners for incoming before a big pull, hehe. Really hoping Cyrodiil can bring this feeling back.

Lost Ranger_sl · Mar 12, 2013

Blackwulf_sl said:
I guess we won't know who's right for quite a while.

Smart money says it isn't you.

Lost Ranger_sl · Mar 12, 2013

Vegetoee_sl said:
If Devs would create something new and stop taking features from other games and mixing it into a hosposh of shit, then maybe we could get some real innovation here.

I'm curious what you consider to be "real innovation". Innovation is a word that gets tossed around a lot when discussing MMO design, and is often misused. Innovation simply means introducing new ideas, and/or methods. Something that game developers do every single day. Even MMOs that are considered by the MMO community to be failures have had their share of innovations. Developers often do just copy/paste ideas, but that is not new to the industry. EverQuest, WoW, and Ultima Online all borrowed heavily from other sources. EQ brought very little to the table that was 100% their idea (if anything). Warcraft has a number of real additions to the genre, but even they can't escape the fact that they took from others. Hell the entire Warcraft universe is just a pre-school version of Warhammer.

I think what the genre really lacks is variety. Not innovation. Innovation is something we don't really have a shortage of. People are constantly trying to change the way we do things, or add new features. The problem is that all of the innovation being done is being directed at WoW-esque games. So it doesn't really matter what gets created if you don't happen to like those type of games, or are simply just tired of them. We need variety. Modernized versions of UO, EQ, DAoC. Hell even EVE is now 10 years old and could probably benefit greatly from a next generation title.

The industry needs to keep moving forward obviously, but there is really only so much you can do in terms of gameplay. We are likely at the point where everything is going to be broken down and compared to the "founding fathers" of the genre. Key is going to be making sure all play styles are represented, but I wouldn't ever expect to see anything truly new.

sakkath · Mar 12, 2013

To add to what you've said, SWTOR, the most reviled of all "AAA MMOs" had quite a lot of innovation. The companion system, crafting system, the itemization system with it all being modular.. HUTTBALL, all innovations. And look where it ended up..

Kedwyn · Mar 12, 2013

You can make a great game from what we have seen already.

Eve crafting / danger / PvP
EQ soft factions less the retarded stuff
GW2 / Archage / FF11 / Vanguard Combos
Vanguard / EQ / Archage / DAOC Classes
Longer travel time but not kick in the balls EQ
Social interaction SWG / EQ
Crafting based economy with mob drops for sockets
Everything BOE
Vanilla WoW leveling speed
Quest option and grind option to advance
PVP to level via Warfronts (War / DAOC)
Shadowbane sieges / housing.

Games have gotten so casual now there is no soul. The pendulum needs to swing back a little.

Zehnpai · Mar 13, 2013

Innovation is one of those words that are so subjective it doesn't really mean anything. it's a marketing term. I remember Darph telling me how rifts in Rift were this new "innovative dynamic content generation system" and I said, "They're random spawn EQ ring events you twat."

etchazz · Mar 13, 2013

i haven't played a MMO since vanguard, so for fuck's sake can someone produce something worth playing? i was looking forward to this one, but nothing i've seen so far from TESO has given me a chubby. in fact, it's left me about as flaccid as looking at pics of swamp donkey...

Zhaun_sl · Mar 13, 2013

If it was Vanguard that made you wet, I think it is unlikely you'll be seeing any AAA MMO title that will interest you for quite a while.

Ukerric · Mar 13, 2013

Draegan_sl said:
You do know all blackwulf is doing is keeping this thread at the top of the list.

We did keep it at the top of list preivously without his help

etchazz · Mar 13, 2013

Zhaun_sl said:
If it was Vanguard that made you wet, I think it is unlikely you'll be seeing any AAA MMO title that will interest you for quite a while.

no, vanguard sucked. but it was still light years better than most of the crap that has been released in the past 5 years. that's how bad things have gotten.

K13R · Mar 13, 2013

Confirmed pile of shit?

Utnayan · Mar 13, 2013

I quote real world comparisons and the downfalls of the "features" of RvR you posted as your advantages in WAR comparson, along with a little upside, mentioned how other games are doing what you have asked and it is nothing new...

Blackwulf_sl said:
Basically you are a glass half empty guy, and I'm a glass half full guy.

Either you are looking forward to the game and trying to find reasons to like it (That's fine, whatever floats your boat) or have an agenda. Either way, you can't spin these features into anything new that is going to change the layout of the gamescape. Firor basically already admitted to not doing one thing different with regards to any of the games out there and meshing them all together. Here is what the game will be:

1) SWTOR style PvE (with phasing) with WAR public dungeons
2) Guild Wars 2 RvR
3) Skyrim style crafting
4) WoW style raiding (If they don't shelf that for an expansion because they are quite frankly, running out of time and money now and * need * to ship in November)
5) Rift style accessibility (Portals and travel style)

Also, here is your metaserver technology.

https://community.heroengine.com/for...c=3587.10;wap2

the vm machine cluster can handle about 2,000 users in general
if I have a large pvp area and 2,000 people decide to be in it (not all at same coordinate location but inside the 1 massive area spread out and around) at the same time. IE a few zerg guilds fighting over different areas in the map.

The server in general can handle it assuming the pvpArea can use all of the VMs resources. However if an area which is a "unit of simulation" can only run on 1 of the physical hardware pieces in the vm's cluster due to cpu threading, ram management, and network routing by the engine. Then the most I can have is about 800 users in my pvparea at any one given time. So I need to plan for that, build in some system to manage pvp player volumes, in my case really forced into a queue system that I would rather not use, build a system to kick inactives faster in the pvp than maybe in pve, and much more. I would probably also look at breaking the area up possibly into different areas and see if I could use some mount ranges, deep trenches etc to cut down on touching grids to help keep concurrently loaded areas down.

OR if an area isn't locked to 1 piece of hardware, and can use any of the 12 cores, 3 network cards, etc all at the same time, then all i have to worry about is making 1 large pvparea, spread the fighting out in that area to take advantage of the systems spatial awareness, etc. Cap my server worlds to 2,000 people, make use of areas with low traffic having possiblity to spin down, allowing the main pvpArea more resources. And just to be clear I would still build in the in-active timers, etc just wouldn't have to worry about queue systems, and having to build out for proxy node based combat system.

so depending on what a unit of simulation actually means when it comes to ability to utilize resources greatly alters how the entire game is built, managed, and advertised. Thus why I am here being the annoying newbie. I know there are a ton of different things, how combat is coded, how this and that. The base question still remains, when a single area is running does it consume resources from all physcial machines making up the overall VM OR does it get tied into a single physical machine that is part of that clustered VM?

Sorry to keep digging at this, but it's so important to the whole game design, that I can't really finalize world design till I get it nailed down.

Thank you all who put up with my walls of text and I appreciate all the help.

Sound familiar?

Nothing to see here. TESO is not using Hero Engine it's a custom engine.

Grim1 · Mar 13, 2013

Has anyone actually played any version of this game, or is all this back and forth just speculation?

Personally I don't give a fuck who makes the game or what engine it uses, the final product is the only thing that counts. Is it fun?

Utnayan · Mar 13, 2013

Grim1_sl said:
Has anyone actually played any version of this game, or is all this back and forth just speculation?

Personally I don't give a fuck who makes the game or what engine it uses, the final product is the only thing that counts. Is it fun?

PAX East will have a canned playable demo available at their show, and then they will have a couple weekend beta events. Half the game isn't even finished yet. And is set (must launch) in November.

ThunderCougarFalconBird_sl · Mar 13, 2013

Utnayan_sl said:
PAX East will have a canned playable demo available at their show, and then they will have a couple weekend beta events. Half the game isn't even finished yet. And is set (must launch) in November.

How the hell is half the game not even finished? At the stage the game should basically be feature-complete; content and features should be should be wrapping up and the team should be in tweaking / tunning / debugging mode. I honestly can't imagine Zenimax leading and funding a studio simply that incompetent.

Utnayan · Mar 13, 2013

ThunderCougarFalconBird_sl said:
How the hell is half the game not even finished? At the stage the game should basically be feature-complete; content and features should be should be wrapping up and the team should be in tweaking / tunning / debugging mode. I honestly can't imagine Zenimax leading and funding a studio simply that incompetent.

3 Stop/Starts is why. Welcome to MMORPG development under Matt Firor. The same thing happened with DAOC, albeit at that point they had Rob Denton holding the ship together to at least ship it. Otherwise, DAOC would have been vaporware. You would be surprised just how little actual development itself from a systems content standpoint goes into these games. I would venture 2 years are tied up in meetings debating various forms of payment, billing structure, server systems, customer support levels, profit goals, and another year in people arguing back and forth about what makes a game fun, defining it 16 ways while researching various blogs. Then the producer (or lack there of) loses faith and sees no milestones have been hit, and need to ship... soon. Wallah. Rinse and repeat, shit in a box

SWG was rescrapped and shipped in 16 months.

But to TESO's credit, this is why they aren't releasing any information after 7 years either. They just don't know what will or won't even make it in the game at this point. But that won't stop blackwulf from being able to visit the SA forums and ignore all of that as the process starts all over again (From game to game, either posters trying to promote their various web sites or developers generating hype for their products to sell knowing full well the condition they are in). Rerolled is a good place to be for real information. I am glad this forum does not buy into the "Hey a Dev!" garbage that was going on at FOH. Because 95% of the time you aren't going to get a solid answer anyway.

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