The Elder Scrolls Online

Abefroman_sl said:

Problem is they don't claim to be new. It's not really a discussion when you almost never mention anything negative about a game or simply dismiss it.

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Some of us got burnt out on shitposting about games back when SoE was pissing people off in EQ1. It gets tiring. For those (like me) in that camp, if we think a game is crap, we just don't play it. We don't bother putting it down to anybody who will listen/read because that's pointless. It doesn't build e-peen anymore, it won't lead to changes in the game unless a significant number of people vocally agree, and it won't change any market dynamics (number of people playing, etc). Besides that, criticism based on knowledge rather than guesswork, that makes an insightful point and is articulated well isn't such a common thing that every post has to include something negative. Otherwise, every discussion eventually just becomes some pissy circlejerk about how horrible this or that is when instead we could be talking about how to win.

Speaking of that... I've been playing with nightblade builds on ESOHead and I'm a bit torn between going stealth and bow, sucking up the weakness until I get snipe, and going DPS/Healer hybrid with lifetaps. I hate to say it, but the whole werewolf/vampire thing factors into this. If it's retarded-difficult then it's not worth considering. But if it's not, then it looks like Bosmer+Bow Nightblade could be good for werewolves and Dark Elf Hybrid Nightblade for vampires. This is lose/lose in a way. It can be easy to screw up a character based on a build that ends up impossible to get later but if those aren't difficult to unlock then everybody will be getting them. Secrecy is part of that difficulty, which makes laying plans a little tricky.

edit: I almost missed this.

Tuco_sl said:

It's just a guess. And my concerns for a 90 day campaign are the opposite of, "I don't know if we can win for 90 days.", it's more that I'm afraid we'll fight hard for two weeks, win uncontested for 30 days and get bored.

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That's exactly what will happen with 90 day campaigns. First, domination will just mean having people logged in and kicking butt 24/7, otherwise the map scrambles every time you step away. That bloats guild size, or at least requires careful collaboration between guilds. More worrisome is that makes it take forever to see the end of campaign reward, which is *not* substantial enough to warrant a 90 day wait (at least from what I've seen). Some of those rewards may be locked down because when I was near the top of the emperor board, the game just didn't give me the rewards when the campaign ended. Others I was grouping with got a couple thousand gold. I was on reward tier three, and my UI didn't even show that the campaign had ended. I can only guess that they want to keep that a surprise, but it bothers me. If it's substantial enough, then emperor armor is moot, otherwise they have to mudflate emperor armor from the start.

"Become emperor, never get new gear that you care about again," is not what they likely want to go for. The only way to balance investment with reward and avoid screwing things up is to shorten the campaign length. This is the sort of thing that would tick people off a few months in if they aren't careful.

signati_sl said:

Some of us got burnt out on shitposting about games back when SoE was pissing people off in EQ1. It gets tiring. For those (like me) in that camp, if we think a game is crap, we just don't play it. We don't bother putting it down to anybody who will listen/read because that's pointless.

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So of all the games released between EQ and now, this is the game you finally decide to post about and like? My post has nothing to do with shitposting and everything to do with defending a game without mentioning the bad stuff.

We have seen blinders in this thread over and over from the fanbois. They never see anything wrong with the combat, response time, first person camera, bugs etc. Some of you sound like the stereotypical beta board fanboy. Enjoy your game, I just don't understand that mentality and never will.

Abefroman: I'm pretty sure you haven't read my posts if you think I never mention flaws, and I'm probably second only to Rescorla on the fanboi meter in this thread. Good criticism is thought provoking and beneficial. Low hanging fruit is useless, and I'll do my best to be blind to it.

Figures.

Kreugen_sl said:

Warcraft was a RTS turned into a MMORPG. Anything lost in translation (like the actual fucking War part) was mostly not missed because the two genres are so different.

TOR was coop KOTOR to a fault. Lengthy dialog in group missions, God Fucking Dammit.

ESO is a 3D action RPG being turned into a 3D action MMORPG. Anything lost in translation is a HUGE GLARING OMISSION. Even things that can't possibly work in a MMO environment.

Not judging, just saying there's a considerable difference when it comes to use of the IP.

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Agreed, I wondered how they were going to setup this version (chapter). Unlike many others on the forums, I have been approaching this like any other TES game in the past, just happens to be co-op in my eyes. While there are some glaring differences, I have been mildly surprised in some and disappointed in others. But I know more what to expect from this IP with some forgivable changes. I am not foolishing thinking this will match with the standard MMO style. If it does, not sure how that would feel given its past play style.

Abefroman_sl said:

All these new people that have always been lurking forever and just now decide to post to defend the honor of teso. It's almost as bad as console fan bois.

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Not sure how this is different than many other threads over the years between forum sites (one being disable or gone and linking to Pantheon KS nowhttp://www.fohguild.org/forums/). If anything the heavy grasp of elitist high ended raiding gamer is slipping or a better way to look at it as a more increased casual/non-raiding player base has become more increasing common.

Even many old school raiders want to be top end with the glory of old but in a more realistic view they know they cannt anymore or just dont want to. Sorry, you're not going to get that virginity feeling back. You are going to have more casual gamers in this thread....wait for it......because maybe the history of the IP has been single player?





Side note, these forums did setup a min post to get into the pics threads. You were just asking to get the lurkers to post on the forum, deal with it.

Be careful Signati, you sound like me in the Vanguard days. You might end up getting burned.

But you mentioned wanting to discuss valid criticisms

Do you not agree that the targeting system seems broken? To take that as a simple example (of something that also has big ramifications on gameplay and class balance).

1)
Get a bow
Go to an enemy within attack range but not aggro range
Hold crosshairs over one so you see it glow red so you know you have it targeted, draw arrow and hold.

At this point you can turn and point the arrow in any direction and it will hit the mob.

2)
Get a bow
Go to two enemies within attack range but not aggro range
Hold crosshairs over one so you see it glow red so you know you have it targeted, draw arrow and hold
Press tab to switch target to the mob next to it
Turn around and face any direction

At this point, you enter randomland. Arrow can hit first mob. Sometimes second mob. Sometimes not.

This is repeatable 100% of the time. This is the targeting mechanic. Once you draw, you have already attacked. However, since you do not have a 100% chance to attack the other mob when switching when tab, it also means there must be something else wrong.

I fail to see how this is not a problem down the line. In my mind at least it seems to give a massive edge to ranged characters, which is also a larger problem since the game is so heavily focused on PvP.

Is combat log possible in closed? Can you see what happens behind the scenes with addons? Because that targeting thing was the most jarring thing I experienced in the beta, since it was such a big part of playing with the bow.

And the starting area was very underwhelming. I enjoyed being able to play first person again, but apparently that is nonviable later on due to telegraphs and such, so I don't think the whole "elder scrolls have a large fan base" will do much for longterm subscriptions. It will sell pre-orders, abosulutely, but I do believe that if people go into this expecting Skyrim online, they will not find it. Elder Scrolls games are massive PvE games, the PvE is the worst part of ESO so far. People who go in wanting that, I don't see how they will remain long enough to keep ESO up as a subscription game.

I'm guessing a 40% drop within the first month without subbing again. Sales will drop fast also compared to pre-orders. Within 3 months, guessing 60-70% will be gone, with sales slowing to a trickle. F2P within end of year.

it is weird reading all the positive posts, it makes me feel totally out of touch. i feel i give all MMOs a pretty fair shake and have played virtually all of them for beta/launch, but I found TESO completely worthless in the 3 beta sessions I tried. Reading all the positive posts here makes me think maybe I missed something or I did something wrong, and hey maybe I should buy the game cuz who gives a fuck about $50 and it'd be fun for a month and... aaaa, nooooo, stahp!

but anyways its definitely not going to go f2p for a while. console version isn't out until mid to late summer, which will dovetail into holiday season so the earliest we'd see f2p is january 2015. probably b2p first, and only go f2p + sub after all the easy money has stopped flowing in - it took swtor over a year to go f2p. However, I am pretty certain the PC version will see 50%+ sales really fast, especially when the console version is out since people will tend to stick around longer if more people are playing.

From what it sounds like most of the positive is based around those who have or will have organized efforts for the Faction vs Faction stuff. Everything else seems to be "meh" or "bad"(not counting blackwulf or the 2 new guys, resco and signati).

I will have to play another weekend before I think about buying. I had so many problems on the last weekend that I barely got to play when I could.

Droigan_sl said:

This is repeatable 100% of the time. This is the targeting mechanic. Once you draw, you have already attacked. However, since you do not have a 100% chance to attack the other mob when switching when tab, it also means there must be something else wrong.

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Almost 100%. I couldn't get it to work the same way when an object obstructs LOS. I tried numerous times to do this by targeting as you describe and then backing off on the battlements. That nitpicking aside, it doesn't seem like a fatal flaw -- the kind that can't be easily fixed. I wouldn't make any claims of being a particularly great programmer because then somebody far better than I would predictably appear and school me (this happens no matter how good you are). However, to me this looks like an obvious issue that arises from something happening out of order. Specifically, it looks like the client registers the hit when you start to draw and transmits the hit to server after you release. Both should happen at the same time. A fix might be as simple as cut and paste, and I doubt that it is much more complicated then that even if it's not that simple.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it will actually be fixed, but with their current work on hit impact ongoing, there's a good chance it will be.

I fail to see how this is not a problem down the line. In my mind at least it seems to give a massive edge to ranged characters, which is also a larger problem since the game is so heavily focused on PvP.

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Bow users simply do not have the DPS for that statement to hold up when we consider gap closers. Snipe turns those tables, but it's expensive to use. This at least holds into the early 20's. After that, you may be right. I don't actually know yet.

Is combat log possible in closed? Can you see what happens behind the scenes with addons? Because that targeting thing was the most jarring thing I experienced in the beta, since it was such a big part of playing with the bow.

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Yes, there are addons that provide for that andthe API was released today. I'm thinking about messing with it to make some guild management tools (something like DKP, a guild event calendar, etc), but I've been fighting a migraine today. Hopefully soon.

And the starting area was very underwhelming.

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If you mean the Coldhabor tutorial, then I agree. I don't see why they couldn't let people skip it after the first time through, but it's a minor annoyance if you just burst through it. I took my time, and got a full set of gear exploring it, but my fiancee ran through in three minutes.

I enjoyed being able to play first person again, but apparently that is nonviable later on due to telegraphs and such, so I don't think the whole "elder scrolls have a large fan base" will do much for longterm subscriptions.

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That doesn't follow from the first person observation. People will naturally transition to third person as they play. For now, the first person is just good enough to help people come over from the single player games. I'd think that using FPV in PvP is ill-advised anyway. That bastard will be behind you. That bastard is always behind you

It will sell pre-orders, abosulutely, but I do believe that if people go into this expecting Skyrim online, they will not find it. Elder Scrolls games are massive PvE games, the PvE is the worst part of ESO so far. People who go in wanting that, I don't see how they will remain long enough to keep ESO up as a subscription game.

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This is absolutely valid and worrisome. Everything that will make or break this game is secret right now. They have several chances to get it right. Adventure zones, special skill lines (vampires/werewolves), guild questlines, 17-50 instanced dungeons, and the main quest come to mind. I spotted some targets in Cyrodiil who look raid-worthy -- enormous deadra that (damnit) I should have screencapped. I thought one was a dragon until I got close enough to see that it looks like something worse. Bear in mind that transitioning single players to MMO play isn't an easy thing, and that will color early content strongly.

edit: Found it!http://api.ning.com/files/aq07GQXjwH...210_183733.jpg

I'm guessing a 40% drop within the first month without subbing again. Sales will drop fast also compared to pre-orders. Within 3 months, guessing 60-70% will be gone, with sales slowing to a trickle. F2P within end of year.

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I like numbers. I have a thing for them. Thing is, I've never made up any off the top of my head that ended up meaning anything. I think it's too soon to project with so much certainty. Be careful mixing quantitative and qualitative analysis. It almost always guarantees that you'll be wrong.

signati_sl said:

How long before F2P? I'll say seven years.

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Jesus that's fucking generous. O_O

The organized PVP people will have their fun for a short time then will leave in droves like they did in GW2 once they get tired of things really not meaning anything. I feel bad for the people coming into this thinking they are going to be playing an Elder Scrolls game.

Abefroman_sl said:

I feel bad for the people coming into this thinking they are going to be playing an Elder Scrolls game.

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Between these people and the typical MMO nomads who pack it up after the free month I think this game will fall off a cliff population-wise very quickly.

signati_sl said:

Almost 100%. I couldn't get it to work the same way when an object obstructs LOS. I tried numerous times to do this by targeting as you describe and then backing off on the battlements. That nitpicking aside, it doesn't seem like a fatal flaw -- the kind that can't be easily fixed. I wouldn't make any claims of being a particularly great programmer because then somebody far better than I would predictably appear and school me (this happens no matter how good you are). However, to me this looks like an obvious issue that arises from something happening out of order. Specifically, it looks like the client registers the hit when you start to draw and transmits the hit to server after you release. Both should happen at the same time. A fix might be as simple as cut and paste, and I doubt that it is much more complicated then that even if it's not that simple.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it will actually be fixed, but with their current work on hit impact ongoing, there's a good chance it will be.

Bow users simply do not have the DPS for that statement to hold up when we consider gap closers. Snipe turns those tables, but it's expensive to use. This at least holds into the early 20's. After that, you may be right. I don't actually know yet.

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I didn't use bow users as an example of them being overpowered, sorry if it came across that way. I just used them because the draw mechanic of the arrow makes it very easy to spot the bug/error in targeting. Instant used skills isn't as easy to see. The draw mechanic of the bow is the only ability I know of that gives you an unlimited time from using the skill (draw bow) until it activates (arrow launches).

The same targeting error is for all classes. Meaning that if a melee starts a swing, the attack is already calculated towards where the crosshairs was, not where the player ends up swinging the sword.

For ranged characters, say a mage, this means that you only need to have the person in the crosshairs when you start the skill, and when the spell/skill finishes, it will home in on the target no matter where they have run to. It isn't active combat, but more like EQ. As you said, los can change it. So if you look at the fireball from the Mage in EQ, it too had los, and when you fired it, if the target was in range, it would hit, unless the target ran behind a tree or something with collision detection. Since there is no collision detection in ESO that I know of, it is then safe to assume that if you launch a fireball at a player, and someone runs in front of the fireball, it will still hit the player behind it (unlike EQ, where it would hit mobs that ran in front of your target).

I haven't tried PvP, but for ranged characters, I would then assume that this would lead to very effective kiting. Being able to run ahead of melee, macro a 180 turn and activate skill, and turn back again. You would then be able to shoot backwards while running forwards, because the skill already calculated the attack the second you initiated the attack with the crosshairs over the other player, wouldn't matter if the animation showed you shooting straight ahead of you into nothing.

And what about long cast skills? Say it takes 6 seconds to cast a spell. In an active combat game, that would be a very powerful spell, due to it normally being difficult to land due to the constant mobility of the players. However, it wouldn't be under this mechanic, because the instant the mage has you in their crosshairs and activates the animation to cast the spell, they have already hit you. You are just 6 seconds behind. That again reminds me more of the slower paced EQ than an action oriented game.

To me, without knowing, it looks like an issue that has come from putting two systems on top of eachother. Like it was designed with slower combat in mind first, but implemented fast action combat afterwards.

It is as you say, probably fixable, but as it stands now, it would stand to reason that it would have a direct impact on gameplay. Certainly favoring ranged in areas where they are able to move, while in clusters, melee would turn more into a FPS sort of thing where you just click with the crosshairs over someone and you will hit even if they have moved by the time you swing. It certainly doesn't help with the combat already feeling floaty.

What do the critics of this game want? For us not to play? Everyone on these forums is highly likely to try out these games. Why? Not because they are shills, it's because they like MMOs. And nowadays with open betas and games going f2p, it's not like you are going to spend much money on them. I haven't tried out the new Final Fantasy MMO yet, and I'm tempted to buy the game. Would I be wrong to buy the game? I don't think so.

I like to see the artwork, try out the combat mechanics, etc.

Honestly, I don't think ESO will be very good, but I'll try it at some point, maybe get a toon to max level. I most likely wait until it goes f2p. But to ask me, an MMO fan not to try it, that's asking a bit much.

signati_sl said:

I like numbers. I have a thing for them. Thing is, I've never made up any off the top of my head that ended up meaning anything.

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Here's a number for you. You are a new member of the forum and 36 of your 38 posts are in this thread. Your other post suggests you work in the industry.Godot Engine (Free open source game engine from MIT)


Rescorla has posted 157 times since he joined. 157 of those posts are in this thread.

You guys are doing a pretty good job of painting a turd into something it isn't but that doesn't stop it being a turd.

signati_sl said:

Everything that will make or break this game is secret right now.

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That's flat out nonsense.

The single most important thing in an MMO is the first hour experience. In TESO the first hour experience is a disaster and whoever is responsible for the decisions which shaped it need firing.

Fingz_sl said:

What do the critics of this game want? For us not to play?Everyone on these forums is highly likely to try out these games. Why? Not because they are shills, it's because they like MMOs. And nowadays with open betas and games going f2p, it's not like you are going to spend much money on them. I haven't tried out the new Final Fantasy MMO yet, and I'm tempted to buy the game. Would I be wrong to buy the game? I don't think so.

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The game is obviously terrible, because a few people on this thread made it to level 10 and say it is. I beta tested FF14 and had issues, but I didn't sit in that thread mucking it up despite the fact I didn't think I'd get enough enjoyment out of it to purchase it. There were new people there, too, since ya know we do get lurkers and people coming in, who want to discuss games and don't want to discuss politics or any other stuff with the motley crew of this board.

Since most of the people here didn't make it past level 15 and have condemned the game without trying any group dungeons, PVP, done any advanced character skills, or done any PVP or endgame PVE, I'll take my chance and spend the money to play it since this game is far more entertaining and has far more potential and looks far better than Wildstar to me since I don't like stylized graphics. If it turns out to suck, I'll go back to playing SWTOR occasionally.

If people hate the design, cool. Say you hate the design and head over to WildstarWOWland. The game doesn't suck due to that, it's just not what you want. I personally like the design. So do many others. What they need to fix are the bugs.

It gets old reading the same people saying over and over the game is terrible because it's not COOP Skyrim, or it isn't single player enough, or some other ridiculously silly bullshit that has absolutely no bearing in an MMO discussion. Then they complain about new people who have actually played the game commenting and saying why they enjoy it. It's silly.

Flight_sl said:

The single most important thing in an MMO is the first hour experience. In TESO the first hour experience is a disaster and whoever is responsible for the decisions which shaped it need firing.

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No, thats the most important thing for the suits to make money with high player retention.

It is almost irrelevant for pretty much everyone on this forum tho, when we say the mmo is a success we all mean we got to endgame and had fun and it didn't wither and die because the games systems and premise were shit. I don't think many of us really care whether the companies make money.

The only way that low retention really hurts everyone is when they are truly bumbling idiots like bioware and fail to merge servers when population declines.

Flight_sl said:

Here's a number for you. You are a new member of the forum and 36 of your 38 posts are in this thread. Your other post suggests you work in the industry.Godot Engine (Free open source game engine from MIT)


Rescorla has posted 157 times since he joined. 157 of those posts are in this thread.

You guys are doing a pretty good job of painting a turd into something it isn't but that doesn't stop it being a turd.





That's flat out nonsense.

The single most important thing in an MMO is the first hour experience. In TESO the first hour experience is a disaster and whoever is responsible for the decisions which shaped it need firing.

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Well said Flight.

I tried to give this game a chance, hell I wanted it to work since I'm a huge Elder Scrolls fan...

Unfortunately, the only thing this game has going for it is having aspects voiced by talent such as Michael Gambon and John Cleese. The combat is atrocious, the animations even worse and the first zone one of the worst parts of the game.

Whilst Blackwulf is clearly a rabid fanboi, his posting reflects that - a diehard fan unable to see through the rose tinted glasses. On the other hand, signati is an obvious shill and Rescorla is a laughable shill with a clear vendetta against Utnayan, but no ability to argue coherently it seems!

Flight_sl said:

Here's a number for you. You are a new member of the forum and 36 of your 38 posts are in this thread. Your other post suggests you work in the industry.Godot Engine (Free open source game engine from MIT)


Rescorla has posted 157 times since he joined. 157 of those posts are in this thread.

You guys are doing a pretty good job of painting a turd into something it isn't but that doesn't stop it being a turd.

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Do new posters need to be irrational haters like Utnayan in multiple threads before they are taken seriously here?

I'd say half my posts are counters to the outright lies Utnayan has told, and continues to tell, about this game. Does the fact that I didn't start posting until his year somehow mean I'm the one lying and Utnayan is telling the "truth"?

I've said multiple times now I don't care if anyone here buys the game or not. From all the reports I have read about how poorly the weekend beta tests went, if that was my only experience with the game I would have concerns about the game myself.

All I can say is that the game runs very well on the PTS closed beta server and the ONLY problems I have encountered are the kinds of minor bugs you see in a new MMO.

Some people will like the game some people will not and stop playing it after 30 days. Different strokes for different folks. Unlike the irrational haters here, my personal mental health isn't tied into the success of the game.