The Elder Scrolls Online

signati_sl

shitlord
102
0
Ah many thanks , will go check those threads out , had no idea had something already like that on here.
I usually strongly recommend starting with Code Academy's Javascript course. It makes learning the basic universal concepts very, very easy and fast. That way, when you jump to something more powerful but also more complicated like C++, you don't feel like you're lost in the woods.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
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I usually strongly recommend starting with Code Academy's Javascript course. It makes learning the basic universal concepts very, very easy and fast. That way, when you jump to something more powerful but also more complicated like C++, you don't feel like you're lost in the woods.
See, I'd recommend going the youtube Python route on ones own Linux box. Six of one, half dozen of another but I greatly prefer Python over Javascript, as someone who has used both.

Being a purist and old coder, though, gotta still say K&R C is the way to really learn the fundamentals.

Let's talk about innovation now. It means doing something new. Change. Well, change means risk. Change everything, people hate it. Change nothing, people hate it. It's just a symptom of WoW syndrome: too much like WoW, "Great another WoW clone," too little like WoW and people complain because it's not what they're used to. Now, back up through these pages and check other sources of opinion too. What they have done differently, they've taken risk with. And predictably, as many people seemingly hate it as love it. So, RvR, phasing, Cartesian Trinity class building... How many risks should one game take?
There's still plenty of fun in the AD&D style of online game. The problem is the 15/mo setup is not a good value anymore for EQ or WOW for me anymore. It was when I was a hardcore gamer, but now that I'm casual it really doesn't work for me. I like a variety of games and have no desire to feel obligated to play due to having a subscription. The rationale that 15 dollars a month is not a lot of money is a poor red herring. If a game gates me out to playing without paying a sub, then it really isn't something that interests me much anymore. It irks me in EQ. It irks me in WOW. It irks me in SWTOR.

I've long been a fan of paying for content. If I buy your game I should have access to that content. If you want me to spend more money, add more content.

Twenty years ago we had metered gaming, where we paid several dollars an hour. That changed and now it's time for the sub model to go away. I'll gladly buy expansion packs, but if I'm done paying a sub fee just to play. I think that design need to go the way of a dinosaur.
 

Bondurant

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Adding inventory space isn't really that big of a deal, you just have to change some values somewhere, there's no need for design. Regarding FoV it's probably something they started to develop and scrapped during development and they now put it back to please casual players since it's for first-person view only.
 

Droigan

Trakanon Raider
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MMOs have come a long, long way, and we have WoW to thank for bringing questing back to the forefront of advancement. The Elder Scrolls fits with that very well too, and the progression in the early single player games is (I think) mirrored about as well as it can be in a MMO. But what does it take for that experience to be particularly good these days? Players are getting that, "I've done this routine before..." feeling; especially those who cut their MMO baby teeth on WoW.

It takes something totally new; the kind of thing that comes along rarely. I agree that innovation in the early game is something needed now in MMOs. I don't agree that ESO doesn't innovate in general, as their class and role system is the first I've seen to bring freedom to Trinity by making it cartesian. Axis 1: the familiar heal, tank, DPS. Axis 2: melee, magic, stealth. I do agree that there is no innovation in the early game, aside from the way that the story is told.

Let's talk about innovation now. It means doing something new. Change. Well, change means risk. Change everything, people hate it. Change nothing, people hate it. It's just a symptom of WoW syndrome: too much like WoW, "Great another WoW clone," too little like WoW and people complain because it's not what they're used to. Now, back up through these pages and check other sources of opinion too. What they have done differently, they've taken risk with. And predictably, as many people seemingly hate it as love it. So, RvR, phasing, Cartesian Trinity class building... How many risks should one game take?
The quest mechanic of WoW is not something I would praise. I thought it was a step down. There is perhaps one quest sprinkled in with 100 tasks. It also made the game into a path based experience. Sure, EQ had that too (in maximizing your exp gains), but that was more of an alt thing (or later on in EQs lifecycle when things were mapped out). It was a large world, with lots of stuff to do, but you had to look for it. In EQ I remember people studying the lore of the items to get hints on possible quest lines. WoW removed all that with a !. I am strongly opposed to the sentiment that easier, faster or more accessible automatically means better.

I'd say that The Secret World is the benchmark MMOs should follow in terms of quests. It is head and shoulders above anything else on the market when it comes to that. Should note that my own definition of quests is lore driven content. Collecting items with no story, or a very poorly written reason to do something, is not a quest. It is a text based exp gain you get after killing X number of mobs. It is a task. WoW nailed that kind of progression. A zone layout with hubs that you naturally follow because you rarely kill much more than the quests tell you to, so you end up with close to exactly the amount of "quests" you need to go to the next zone +-1 or 2 levels. Last "quest" is usually to go to the next level appropriate zone to start a new hub. Sadly this seems to be the standard formula now.

Biggest difference between EQ and mmos following it though has been the community. EQ didn't try to do it, it was a fluke. It naturally formed due to the nature of the game. Inter connectivity between the classes was a must, and so you had to talk to people. You had to group. Death mechanic forced you to learn your class, or else you would have difficulty getting groups since mistakes you made could impact others as well. This is something every mmo since then has tried to go away from, making it into "your" experience, which is far from the point of a MMO in my opinion. Scripted experiences that make "you/everyone" the hero is best left for single player games.

Seems the focus on "innovation" I see in mmos are more and more ways to do just that, make the games into "your" experience. You are the hero, with a long initial questline identifying you as such (never mind that everyone else you see is one too). New features that make grouping easier (read: enable tools to let you join and leave groups without uttering a word to anyone). Everything to make it so that interaction with others are kept to a minimum. Instancing/phasing, etc, are all just tools to let you experience your content at your leisure. MMOs are hardly MMOs anymore and the worlds seem smaller because of it.

Or as I have said before, EQ was a MMOrpg, everything since then has been more on the mmoRPG side. Which is why so many fail I think. It is nearly impossible for single player games to compete with MMOs, but when MMOs turn into single player game experiences the competition is huge and rarely can a MMO deliver scripted content to match a single player game. The Secret World coming closest in terms of their quests as the detail and lore in them were genuinely interesting. In the end of EQ, it was the guild and the people I knew that kept me subbed, not the gameplay. There has been lots of good things happening to MMOs since EQ, making them better "games", but seems an equal amount has been lost, especially when it comes to forming an actual community in the game which is something MMOs should have.

Simplest fixes I can think of for that is to bring back the risk in risk vs reward and let the community form around it and bring back the interconnection between classes in terms of resurrections, summons, corpse finds, travel, buffs, etc. At this point, I'd say innovation would be to require interaction with someone else within the first 10 levels. That seems unheard of in the MMOs of late, including ESO.
 

Bondurant

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Sigh... here's my writeup about:

the major changes for the worse coming announced on the Psijic forums, and some already in-game

So they've basically announced they're removing UI addons for basics like seeing your health and mana amounts numerically, custom target plates, and pretty much everything, on their Psijic boards and then locked the thread of people arguing against the decision. Their statements internally to a guild leader were that they aren't targeting an MMO or ES audience but rather intend to make their own game vision. (Beats me what the hell they think they're targeting then with an MMORPG with an Elder Scrolls skin).

They also have in the latest patch (0.181) made anything but linear questing through the main zone questlines completely unviable for gaining XP or leveling. Grinding mobs with a partner has been nerfed into the ground with a poor XP split; PVP earnings of XP are orders of magnitude (literally) slower than grinding even; and they made exploration XP give virtually nothing too. So there goes any of the non-linearity the game had, too.

Crafting has been nerfed significantly from being some of the most powerful gear in the game to some of the weakest top-level items you can equip. They have taken out any value to it except for making potions, when previously it was a strong game system.

Veteran Rank XP has also been nerfed so that you must do every single quest in the zones in order to even come close (and that isn't enough, believe it or not, to level you fully!) to getting to VR10. Same as normal XP in terms of now having no options. I guess they think people will grind out the rest? You currently will get to around VR6 and if lucky, 7, with the current build, and VR's 8, 9, and 10 take upwards of 9 million XP total to reach (for all 3 combined), while killing a monster gives around 100-200xp as does a player.

My pre-order has been cancelled, and will stay that way. The level of arrogance the developers there are displaying is off the charts, and they have no direction in mind for the game very obviously since they're reacting to blog posts in a knee-jerk manner, ignoring their core tester group and locking threads, barely responding in general over the last couple of months. Even if they fixed things, who's to say it won't just change and be gutted out like so many other things in a short time? Not worth my time, money, or effort anymore. The major issues now far outnumber and overshadow the major aspect that was good, Cyrodiil, and flaw it in some cases such as removing the addons that provided basic combat information for PVP. It's a completely reckless leadership that simply does not deserve my cash, and really anyone else's if you ask me. Go donate to Camelot Unchained if you want RvR. This game won't have it.
Source
 

Boloboy

Bronze Knight of the Realm
315
7
lol I have been watching people play this weekend on the pts. As of the new changes it takes 6-7 days to get vr10. Not played, but playing each night. Sounds like a lot of whiny heresay. As the people I have been watching were answering questions and have been playing for almost a year and being lvl 50 vr10. The internet is just that believe what you will.
 

Bondurant

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Someone answered on Reddit :

Due to this comment I just ran around the Psijic forums looking for any information about this.
They did not announce any specifics on what was going to be limited in the addon API from what I can tell, just that there is going to be some limitations. If they were that specific and drastic, the addon section of the forum would be on fire and there wouldn't be just one locked thread. From what I read, there is a general concern of what may be limited in the future, but nothing definitive and definitely nothing damning.
Questing outside of the main quest line doesn't seem to have any changes, after looking at the change logs for .18 and .181, I can't see anything that majorly effects that, and it certainly isn't a point of contention for anyone in the Psijic feedback threads. There seems to be a nerf to XP gain once you hit VR but questing on my own doesn't seem so grindy at all, and I've read testimonies that it's actually still smooth sailing after a point. Mobs have been increased in difficulty, though.
XP share with parties has been altered to prevent power leveling, this obviously can very easily be altered after some feedback. It's still being tested and almost absolutely will be changed.
Remember, this is the PTS, the server that gets the builds before the weekend betas. Everything on this server is even more subject to change than what anyone in the weekend beta has ever experienced.
Whoever wrote that is the one with the knee-jerk reactions. ZoS has been nothing but wholly accommodating, and is doing their best to make a fun experience for as many people as possible in my eyes. This guy obviously is not one of those people and I won't lose any sleep over his cancelled pre-order.
I'll try to keep a lookout on the forums for you, though, if I catch people actually bringing up these points.
EDIT: Totally forgot to mention! Crafting gear is by far the best way to gain the most powerful gear still. I have yet to find a piece of dropped gear that was better than what I crafted stat wise. The best use for dropped gear is if you don't craft, and there are plenty of drop exclusive set pieces that are very useful.
Source
 

twincannon_sl

shitlord
15
0
So they've basically announced they're removing UI addons for basics like seeing your health and mana amounts numerically, custom target plates, and pretty much everything
Is that in response to this?

We do not want those who aren?t interested in using an add-on to feel compelled to do so because they cannot remain competitive without them. As we continue beta testing, we?ll continue to evaluate add-ons and the implications they have on other players, but you can expect changes to the API before launch and will share that information as it becomes available.
If so, that's a pretty shining example of why developers usually never communicate with their playerbase under any circumstance lol
 

Cinge

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What dumb fucks. Then add the basic shit to the default UI and put everyone on the same page. This is why listening to player-base is so retarded. From what I heard the original UI in game had all the basic information, but players whined it wasnt ES enough so they removed it and addons had to take their place. So why the fuck would they make changes to appease a audience that doesn't want that information at all, even when its given to them in the default UI. How the hell does making it a addon, suddenly compel them to want it again. Just another case of certain players not happy enough to play their way, they want everyone else to play their way also.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
If so, that's a pretty shining example of why developers usually never communicate with their playerbase under any circumstance lol
Really? Then someone should tell the EQL team that they aren't supposed to be talking to it's players.

I've never seen a team so eager to not shut up about what they want to do and what you think about it. But you did say 'usually' so I guess that covers it.
 
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What dumb fucks. Then add the basic shit to the default UI and put everyone on the same page. This is why listening to player-base is so retarded. From what I heard the original UI in game had all the basic information, but players whined it wasnt ES enough so they removed it and addons had to take their place. So why the fuck would they make changes to appease a audience that doesn't want that information at all, even when its given to them in the default UI. How the hell does making it a addon, suddenly compel them to want it again. Just another case of certain players not happy enough to play their way, they want everyone else to play their way also.
WHy not make that fundamental target data a HUD element you can turn on and off? Not sure what other info people want in their PvP HUD that would be fair to have. How much damage you did to the enemy in floaties would be good. I like getting that in GW2.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
WHy not make that fundamental target data a HUD element you can turn on and off? Not sure what other info people want in their PvP HUD that would be fair to have. How much damage you did to the enemy in floaties would be good. I like getting that in GW2.
You mean like this:
datsburst.png


That doesn't really look "TES"-y. Maybe they don't think it would fit their theme very well and turn off the faithful.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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WHy not make that fundamental target data a HUD element you can turn on and off? Not sure what other info people want in their PvP HUD that would be fair to have. How much damage you did to the enemy in floaties would be good. I like getting that in GW2.
I agree, but the thing is, if they give the ability to turn it off or on, the whiners will still complain that people have it on and because they refuse to turn it on for themselves, as they don't like it, they are somehow at a disadvantage.

That doesn't really look "TES"-y. Maybe they don't think it would fit their theme very well and turn off the faithful.
Why he said with the ability to turn it off, but it won't stop the "purist".
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
I agree, but the thing is, if they give the ability to turn it off or on, the whiners will still complain that people have it on and because they refuse to turn it on for themselves, as they don't like it, they are somehow at a disadvantage.
Yeah this kind of goes with what I mean.

If it's toggled, then the person who is a TES purist turns this off since they don't have that kind of 'ugly number display' in the series (from what I remember). So he's playing 'immersed' in first person.

But by doing that, he now can't see what the other person can (disadvantaged) so he's upset and demands that the other person turn his off too or make ZoS remove it altogether.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
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The design decisions Zenimax is making to side with MMO or ES are so confounding. It's like if you lined up all the choices they had to make to choose the MMO way or the ES way you could make a better game by doing the opposite of what they're doing.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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If the player makes a conscious choice to turn it off or not use it, you are reaching to then claim being disadvantaged. Especially when its basic information.

And it doesn't need to be big numbers on their screen like a scrolling combat display, let them choose to have a combat chat window(since they seem to be okay with that) and the only difference being cosmetic.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
If the player makes a conscious choice to turn it off or not use it, you are reaching to then claim being disadvantaged. Especially when its basic information.
Agreed but as you said, it won't stop them from complaining.

I remember in TOR people would get killed by someone in Tatooine and then complain that Bioware sucked because they didn't want to get ganked. People would reply "Just toggle the PvP off and they can't kill you". Then a half-hour flamewar on General would take place when the person said they didn't feel like toggling it off; it should be off in the first place.
 

rhinohelix

Dental Dammer
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Was it here I read that thing about someone writing an auto-cast interrupt macro based on the API basically giving too much information? That kind of stuff I would indeed like to see squashed. As long as it doesn't allow for that big of an impact and just provides player/team information, I am all for that.

I will say, though, that on at least a couple of occasions I would re-download WoW on a whim, get it installed, and then start to set up all of the add-ons and just have my interest plummet. I would be much happier to have all of that, or at least the best parts of the community-built add-ons incorporated into the UI as options.