The Elder Scrolls Online

Blackwulf

Blackwulf

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Erronius_sl said:
So now I have to be a Developer to be able to critique an MMO? This is such an incredibly stupid statement that I'm at a loss for words.
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I'm just going to clarify this point, since it seems to have struck a nerve with a lot of you little tigers. I'm certainly not saying you have to be a dev to criticize a game. I think my statement has to do with the lack of insight a lot of you show with your complaints. It's one thing to say the game could have been a lot better or the devs are obviously idiots because they did X, but if you don't actually think about WHY they did X, then, really, what's the point of complaining?

For example, a lot of people complain that the game isn't enough MMO and it's too much quest grind. Well, you can either assume that the devs are idiots, or you can think about why things came out this way. It's obvious to me that the devs were actually hamstrung by the very thing people assume is their strength - their very successful IP. On the one hand, you have a great history of successful ES games with lots of sandboxy elements. On the other hand, you have Skyrim selling 20M units and bean counters shouting at you to, "Make it more Skyrim!!" Then you have the other bean counters looking at WOW's success, shouting at you to, "Make it more WOW!" Now, if you are Matt Firor, who came to this gig with the, perhaps ignorant, plan of using this successful IP to make an unofficial DAOC 2, you've got to try to figure out how to please everyone. It's not as easy as you think.

So, my point wasn't that you shouldn't armchair dev, it's more along the lines of don't be a moron and make blanket statements about how dumb the devs are or how easy it would be to make this game perfect. You need to realize the fact that if you were given 100M+ to make an MMO, you'd have just as many strings attached to that money with people on the other ends tugging your game in different directions.

So, Erronius, they've made a few decisions that you didn't like (or that you think you wouldn't like based on you reading reviews), why don't you list a few of them? If you think about it logically, and ask yourself, "why would the devs do this?" you'll probably come to one of the following conclusions:
- there are other types of gamers that like it the way they did it
- they ran out of time/money and are working to improve the issue post release
- there was a suit forcing their hand to be "more Skyrim" or "more WOW"

Do you see what I'm getting at? The correct explanation isusually not: The devs are dumb and Erronius is smart.

My gripe isn't with armchair devs, it's with narrow minded armchair devs that don't consider all sides of a problem and just hurl insults left and right.

ESO isn't the game I dream of - it's just a decent game right now, and I don't have a better option. I'm hoping they keep improving things so that it becomes an actuallygoodgame that I look forward to staying with, but it's not there yet.

Personally, I'll repeat what I've said before:I don't think any AAA MMO will ever be what I (or you), consider a perfect game.There are just way too many people with ties to the money pulling the game in different directions. I'm really hoping that someone will release a world building type game where you can run your own server, with your own rulesets, and just have a smaller population (~200) per server. This would allow for a lot more freedom and people like you and I can play the types of games that we like.
 
J

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
Zugarific_sl said:
I'd be curious to see what the majority of people actually said in the surveys. Were the common sense MMO features that most of us here wanted, actually in the minority vote?

I want to say the devs are idiots for not listening, but maybe they did.
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Based on what usually happens in games, that is entirely possible. It could very well be they listened to the loud minority of players who post like crazed idiots on just about every game forum.

It wouldn't be the first time an mmo went down the tubes for listening to those few that scream the loudest for 'immersion' or whatever crusade they personally want.

But that falls back onto Draegan's point, making them barely functioning idiots for listening to that ridiculous shit vs all common sense and conventional wisdom regarding MMO's.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Rescorla_sl said:
If you enjoyed playing the game, then perhaps you are one of the few here who isn't an irrational hater and can understand why there are others who are still enjoying it. There have been a lot of improvements over the past couple of patches. The main thing was a fix to Cyrodil lag. Bringing stamina builds up to be as viable as magicka builds is in the works. The botters and gold sellers are gone.

Tuco's list of changes needed for more meaningful PVP apparently caught the devs attention because some of that is going in soon. Still a ways to go on the PVP side.

Bottom line is the PVE in this game is very solid, especially if you like dungeon crawls or you like to solo. The PVP needs to be brought up to the same level of quality as the PVE and the game will be fine.
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I make it a habit of not attempting to convince people they are really not having fun. People play games they like, I don't give a fuck if they do. I honestly don't get the passion of people who can't understand people who like the game are going to defend it and/or put it in the best possible (often deluded) light. Who gives a fuck, stop clicking on the thread. It's a boring fight.

That's also to say, I don't understand why fanboys love to defend the game or any aspect of it to death. It really gets you know where. I'd rather have these threads about the game and it's updates and whatever, and not a bunch of assholes on both sides pissing all over each other. It's pretty boring and honestly who gives a fuck. You'll have more luck trying to convince a gay man he really loves pussy.
 
Blackwulf

Blackwulf

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Draegan_sl said:
I'd rather have these threads about the game and it's updates and whatever, and not a bunch of assholes on both sides pissing all over each other. It's pretty boring and honestly who gives a fuck. You'll have more luck trying to convince a gay man he really loves pussy.
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This is a good point, and I do get sucked into arguments too easily. I'm far from a complete fanboy of this game, btw:

1. I'm not doing Trials because I think they are stupid. I've always hated DPS race encounters and here they did entire raids that are DPS races. Really annoying how that pigeon holes end game players into robe/staff cookie cutter builds.

2. I'm really getting bored with the PVP because, keep zergs get old, man. I want my DAOC RP progression system.

I'm still holding out hope that future updates will add some life to the end game for people like me, but I'm well aware that it might not. If there were a better game out right now, I'd go for it.

Anyway, to your point - I'll try to stick to discussions about what this game is doing, and less about defending it from haters/trolls. Like you said - can't convince a gay guy that he will like pussy.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Utnayan_sl said:
I am trying to figure out how you just contradicted yourself here, and it could very well be me misreading what you are saying. If a game has a great class/skill system, yet the classes are completely unbalanced and buggy, how does one of the most important micro aspects of making a class (Skill sets) be done well when it also will be responsible for making classes unbalanced? The hearft of each class is going to be the power underneath the skill sets. If they are done correctly across the game, the classes are not unbalanced.

As far as graphics go, and this is completely subjective, it didn't look like anything different than SWTOR. Especially from an environment point of view. Alderaan in SWTOR was gorgeous. Aesthetically, it looks just the same as just outside Whiterun in Skyrim in TESO.

Alderaan, 4000 x 2000 pixels - MMORPG.com Star Wars: The Old Republic Galleries

NordMountainView | Ten Ton Hammer
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How is it a contradiction? The class system has nothing to do with how poorly balanced and buggy it was. The mechanics on how you build and grow your character were quite excellent and gave ESO a way to add content for a very long time. All weapons gave everyone access tot he same skills that added flavor to the individual class trees. I think the training of skills and morphing them was an excellent idea. You also tie in the guilds and other groups that you could pick from made the game pretty fun to work through.

Not only that, it gives ESO a way to add classes in the future easily enough.

The problem was that the tooltips sucked, the damage/defense numbers were bad, the soft/hard caps with stats was shitty and so on and so on. But that's all balancing that should of been done during testing and it seemed the devs didn't even try; which makes them retarded.

If you think ESO and SWTOR looked the same, you're blind. But I won't fight anyone on graphcis because people have their own tastes.
 
Vitality

Vitality

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So let me get this straight, y'all quit the game but are in here telling people it's good? Is that the TL;DR?

The game "was" fun, not good.
 
J

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
Blackwulf_sl said:
Well, you can either assume that the devs are idiots, or you can think about why things came out this way.
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Guild stores vs auction house... GO!

Zenimax beta: "Don't need auction house. We got guild stores. That's enough."
Zenimax launch: "Don't need auction house. Here, use these third party sites along with your guild stores. That's enough."
Zenimaz today: "Don't need auction house. We got guild stores, we got third party sites, we are adding guild stores at keeps in Cyrodiil that anyone on your faction can use. That's enough."
Zenimax future: "Don't need auction house. We got guild stores, we got third party sites, we added guild stores in Cyrodiil, and we are adding hundreds of guild stores around towns/cities across all factions. Now you can run around and check all those places too. That's enough."
Zenimax far future (after console sales). "We should have put in an auction house... that would have been enough."

rrr_img_70966.jpg


Yeah, they sound like idiots to me for cheesing away easy subs.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

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Blackwulf_sl said:
Some good points/
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You make some good points. But you cannot assume that happened in this case (Being pulled and losing all creative freedom) Especially when Zenimax Online is completely separate from anyone but Zenimax Media itself. Now, it could very well be that Cal Ripkin Jr came into Matt Firor's office and said, "I want this to be more like a Sandbox Skyrim", while Jerry Bruckheimer came in and said he wanted it more like WoW, and Matt Firor wanted DAOC Senior. I don't see that happening when the board of directors of Zenimax M edia usually give total creative freedom and are fairly hands off.

Honestly,
No source
I believe Firor got in over his head, is a President with not a lot of directional/executive leadership abilities, made very poor hiring decisions, and even worse correctional lateral promotions. I believe that those people then were placed in charge with our typical top down development cycle where things get * very * political. (Asset starvation, departments not talking to one another, etc) and a lot of copy paste from other previous games with no real direction of anything it ever really wanted to be. This happens as a result of poor leadership, but also further more happens when the President of an MMORPG development company says there will never be any more innovation in this genre.

I agree with a point of yours where you doubt any AAA MMORPG will be a perfect game. I do not think fans and consumers are asking for perfect. They are asking for fresh, new, innovative, out of the box thinking that will drive the genre passed a point and click level simulator with a sub fee attached, or charging $5.99 for 5 more points and 10 more clicks.

I am of the very firm belief, we will never get there with the people manning the helms today and those in charge of design direction.

It won't happen.
 
Blackwulf

Blackwulf

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999
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Draegan_sl said:
How is it a contradiction? The class system has nothing to do with how poorly balanced and buggy it was. The mechanics on how you build and grow your character were quite excellent and gave ESO a way to add content for a very long time. All weapons gave everyone access tot he same skills that added flavor to the individual class trees. I think the training of skills and morphing them was an excellent idea. You also tie in the guilds and other groups that you could pick from made the game pretty fun to work through.
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This is the only thing saving the game for me right now. I've put a lot of time into my main, and am pretty bored with the current endgame, but I recently started an alt. I'm playing a Sorcerer and doing it like a barbarian in leather armor with a two-hander. The 1-50 game is fine if you do stamina based builds supported by magicka, and it's a lot of fun to mix and match your build. It's really only at endgame that cloth just starts to dominate. They ARE making strides to improve that, though. If you look at the item set bonuses in the new update, you can see that they are trying to swing the pendulum back toward making stamina a contender.
 
Blackwulf

Blackwulf

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Jackdaddio_sl said:
Guild stores vs auction house... GO!

Zenimax beta: "Don't need auction house. We got guild stores. That's enough."
Zenimax launch: "Don't need auction house. Here, use these third party sites along with your guild stores. That's enough."
Zenimaz today: "Don't need auction house. We got guild stores, we got third party sites, we are adding guild stores at keeps in Cyrodiil that anyone on your faction can use. That's enough."
Zenimax future: "Don't need auction house. We got guild stores, we got third party sites, we added guild stores in Cyrodiil, and we are adding hundreds of guild stores around towns/cities across all factions. Now you can run around and check all those places too. That's enough."
Zenimax far future (after console sales). "We should have put in an auction house... that would have been enough."
Yeah, they sound like idiots to me for cheesing away easy subs.
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I imagine therealreason for not putting in a global auction house is some sort of megaserver database issue.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Draegan_sl said:
How is it a contradiction? The class system has nothing to do with how poorly balanced and buggy it was. The mechanics on how you build and grow your character were quite excellent and gave ESO a way to add content for a very long time. All weapons gave everyone access tot he same skills that added flavor to the individual class trees. I think the training of skills and morphing them was an excellent idea. You also tie in the guilds and other groups that you could pick from made the game pretty fun to work through.

Not only that, it gives ESO a way to add classes in the future easily enough.

The problem was that the tooltips sucked, the damage/defense numbers were bad, the soft/hard caps with stats was shitty and so on and so on. But that's all balancing that should of been done during testing and it seemed the devs didn't even try; which makes them retarded.
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I understand what you are saying now.

If you think ESO and SWTOR looked the same, you're blind. But I won't fight anyone on graphics because people have their own tastes.
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I have a hard time distinguishing terrain tile sets from one game to the next. Sure, there are different structure sets, but overall, the backgrounds of the game look identical to me. It's probably the reason why I feel they are so similar.
 
F

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
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Blackwulf_sl said:
I'm just going to clarify this point, since it seems to have struck a nerve with a lot of you little tigers. I'm certainly not saying you have to be a dev to criticize a game. I think my statement has to do with the lack of insight a lot of you show with your complaints. It's one thing to say the game could have been a lot better or the devs are obviously idiots because they did X, but if you don't actually think about WHY they did X, then, really, what's the point of complaining?
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Can you explain why they made the first hour of the game so pathetically bad that many people in beta simply gave up on the game and didn't get past that first hour, so bad in fact they decided that people would have the option of skipping it ?
 
Vitality

Vitality

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Draegan_sl said:
At release, I didn't find the first hour any different than any other MMORPG. They're all pretty boring.
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Idk about you, but there's nothing on the planet like that release rush for me. Up late at night with the bros just jamming that login to get in and get going.

Kinda like tail-gating or whatever.

I'm a giant release whore I guess.
 
Tuco

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Vitality_sl said:
Idk about you, but there's nothing on the planet like that release rush for me. Up late at night with the bros just jamming that login to get in and get going.

Kinda like tail-gating or whatever.

I'm a giant release whore I guess.
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Yeah I'm the same way. It's like tail gating in a crash derby from all the technical issues.

Can't wait for AA's release. I didn't even bother getting the elite-early access for ESO, but I'm taking off work for AA.
 
B

Beastro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
140
1
Utnayan_sl said:
If a game has a great class/skill system, yet the classes are completely unbalanced and buggy, how does one of the most important micro aspects of making a class (Skill sets) be done well when it also will be responsible for making classes unbalanced?
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Everquest?
 
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