The Elder Scrolls Online
- Thread starter Anomander Rake
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He has a valid point here. The current state of MMO is equal to that of dog shit, it smells and someone needs to pick it up and throw it away. After Wow came out, the era of good MMOs was gone, and not because EQ was soooo freaking sweet. It had a ton of faults. If Devs would create something new and stop taking features from other games and mixing it into a hosposh of shit, then maybe we could get some real innovation here. For the life of me, I don't understand why companies keep thinking you can benchmark MMOs, when you really can't. GD morons ruining a great genre.
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
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Yes and the funny thing ? These WoW knock offs can't even do VANILLA WoW right, that is even more ridiculous. When SWTOR was released i was ok with WOW in star wars and likely if it had *brace yourself* the complexity of WoW vanilla i would have played the hell out of it.
Not that I am touting WoW here but seriously when you look back at the MMO genre since the WoW release and you start thinking that WoW had complexity, we have serious problems or I am just not and never will be part of the "modern" target market of MMOs.
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Let me say that I was cheering from the bleachers when Ut was banned last time from FoH. More recently, for me since seeing his TSW posts after buying the box, his posting has changed from pure venom and bile bomb-throwing to well-written and -reasoned productive posts that I enjoy reading.
Yeah. What's even more mind boggling from my point of view is that he seems to have a knack for lengthy answers while completely missing the point.
For instance, the question was about PvE endgame/raids, yet he picks a 4-player group of level 12. Everyone knows that a 4-player group of level 12 is going through content as challenging as PvE endgame/raids ! So either he is completely missing the point, or he is completely evading the question, or the game is as challenging at level 12 as it is at level 50 !
Still, when trying to address the holy trinity point, he has the guts to pretend that "with four players making independent choices in abilities and gear, three of the four made builds that defied the standard templates ? and yet felt perfectly viable in actual play". Yeah, like if not having a dedicated tank but throwing two members of the group focusing on healing in a 4-player group (so half of the group) while going through level 12 content is clearly showing that the holy trinity is not necessary. Ever-heard of over-healing ?
Seriously, just answer yes/no and move on to the next question instead of providing completely irrelevant details. This makes him more like a fool than anything else, which is the worst way to promote your game.
That is the thing, the answer is only valuable if you understand what those classes are and what they can do. If they explained it in terms of WoW or D&D classes or something it may have been useful. But as it stands this answer is kind of crap.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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In all reality it's just another answer of you can have a couple different roles within your class, but it will fall back on the same Tank, 2 DPS, Healer type of strategy here. Just how a class goes about it may be different. DPS meaning burst or damage over time, healing meaning Heal over time or flash healing, and tank being well, get hit and button smash single target aggro multiple times, or AOE.
Long winded answers usually mean, "We are doing everything everyone else is doing but trying to make it sound different when it isn't". Publishers/developers are really trying hard with new terminology to make it sound different when it isn't. I remember getting chewed out by a SWTOR player for calling Black Talon an instance instead of a flashpoint.
Or phasing, which should really mean changing geometry due to player action (Ala, WoW) but now some folks are using that to mean "You can enter your own little portion of his hallway where your storyline NPC is at". I wonder how many people read "Phasing" and still think it will change the world dynamically since in all reality, blizzard coined the term.
In all reality, they are just trying to sell boxes to people who do not know any better.
Long winded answers usually mean, "We are doing everything everyone else is doing but trying to make it sound different when it isn't". Publishers/developers are really trying hard with new terminology to make it sound different when it isn't. I remember getting chewed out by a SWTOR player for calling Black Talon an instance instead of a flashpoint.
In all reality, they are just trying to sell boxes to people who do not know any better.
Erronius
Macho Ma'am
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Personally I don't think it is black and white, and there is a number of games that populate this odd grey area in the middle. Games that aren't completely terrible, but games that aren't probably what they should be either. AoC was one and I played it twice, but I can see why other people refused to touch it. Or STO, a game I refused to buy but others thought it was 'ok". Some games you want to be successful even if it is completely unlikely, like Fallen Earth or others. I bought it partially because of it's alt-studio pedigree, and the setting in general. I knew that the odds were against it, but I gave them money anyways. I was turned off early by many bugs and design oversights that imo should have been fixed early on, and things like"We will never allow respecs. EVER."and the repeatable skillpoint or whatever earning quests that allowed people to farm those points and then the Devs said that they couldn't adjust those totals backwards...yeah, but I think I'll pass.
What I do is try to mitigate how much I spend, and even while I do give money to some games that could go either way, I do try to totally avoid the true shitshows.
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
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Spot on and certainly fits the mold. Its everywhere in gaming these days . . . EA and others etc are simply using marketing and repackaging of old game-play and marketing it as new. This typically happens in an industry when there are many acquisitions and consolidation. The big win or ROI is simple, scale down development, put in more marketing dollars and net revenue = +++++++ and go after the low hanging fruit opportunities (casuals).In all reality it's just another answer of you can have a couple different roles within your class, but it will fall back on the same Tank, 2 DPS, Healer type of strategy here. Just how a class goes about it may be different. DPS meaning burst or damage over time, healing meaning Heal over time or flash healing, and tank being well, get hit and button smash single target aggro multiple times, or AOE.
Long winded answers usually mean, "We are doing everything everyone else is doing but trying to make it sound different when it isn't". Publishers/developers are really trying hard with new terminology to make it sound different when it isn't. I remember getting chewed out by a SWTOR player for calling Black Talon an instance instead of a flashpoint.Or phasing, which should really mean changing geometry due to player action (Ala, WoW) but now some folks are using that to mean "You can enter your own little portion of his hallway where your storyline NPC is at". I wonder how many people read "Phasing" and still think it will change the world dynamically since in all reality, blizzard coined the term.
In all reality, they are just trying to sell boxes to people who do not know any better.
Help me Kickstarter . . . you are my only hope ?
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Thats true for normal gamers like you or I. For example I rather liked SWTOR for a while. And like you I played Conan for a while too. But for him itshouldbe balck and white the way he rails agains these games. Example, he railed agains SWTOR for months before release and yet he still bought it and played it and still bitched at it. Do you think this is normal? Its like bitching how bad Joes Pizza is and yet still going there to pick up pies.
Stand up for what you believe instead of being waffle boy.
In any game, you could usually take a bunch of scrubs into a low level dungeon and do whatever in. They mentioned that they "eventually" completed it. To me that says they beat a dungeon that should normally take 1 hour, in 5 hours. But they are proud that they could complete a dungeon with 4 random people.
The devs are proud of this, but in reality, players will never do it. They will find the most efficient combo and only create a group to that dimension. They won't care that you can do something with 4 randoms because it takes 2 hours.
The devs are proud of this, but in reality, players will never do it. They will find the most efficient combo and only create a group to that dimension. They won't care that you can do something with 4 randoms because it takes 2 hours.
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Meh. One can still bitch at the lack of innovation in the industry, the tried and failed developers that move onto the next projects and repeat the same style of development and production, and still try to find SOME enjoyment out of the genre in any of the games hoping for something decent to still come out of it. As stated, I did find something I liked with TSW in some of the content so that warranted a purchase based on what I saw and played in Savage Coast. Once I hit Egypt I lost interest and didn't play again. Now that it is not a sub based game, I can really hop in whenever I want, even though I haven't. SWTOR had terrible marketing spins to fool the general public about it's unique class story content. It's like when Ester the Tester stated cloth caps were working as intended when dropping from Warders in ST. Well, yeah, I guess it is. The default drop for an unfinished loot table is a cloth cap, so what system was working as intended right? Kind of ridiculous that type of information was ever allowed to be posted. But that mechanic, because of relic designers and producers, gets used more and more everyday. It's a new normal.
I get upset more at the deflections and dishonety/spin involved in trying to get people to the finish line of purchasing a box, only to realize that there was 25% truth to what they were saying about the features/concepts. So when I hear otherwise and see that deflected, I feel like pointing that out. The developer mantra comes from the same folks doing it again and again that have turned it into a business model and therefore, we see zero innovation. When it gets to the point where developers of the project start sending PM's stating the actual truth behind it and their disgust with their own companies and management (Aside from just the normal job woes) it becomes apparent that even the designers in the industry wish they could do a lot more, but can't. And that holds the entire genre back to where it is today. So yeah, that bugs me. It's the catch-22 of a lifetime because if people stopped paying for them, they would stop making them not realizing the genre has a ton of potential to exploit for profits and revenue; they'll just scapegoat their way out saying exactly what others have said from the industry on a lack of interestin the genre, or the genre market grew up and had kids and had no time for these games anymore. Which we know couldn't be further from the truth. Zero accountability and shipped is all that matters.
With that said I have also come to the realization that I will probably still get some money's worth in there, and I still love the genre. I just wish for more transperancy in the development process, companies ceasing to spin features (or attempt to spin features) that have been around for the last 8 games over 8 years into something new, which never is, just to sell a box when they full know otherwise. You can say it happens in any industry, and I am sure it does, but at some point I do not see the designer of Apple Maps going to Google to design another maps app. In this genre, the prevalant deflections from the eschelons of upper management/hiring process - down - is what is really holding back everything.
Just one time it would be great to actually see the accountability from a Rich Vogel, a Matt Firor, a Dave Georgenson; saying that they have learned from past mistakes and actually watch them succeed in trying, rather than just blow more money/smoke up people's asses and repeat the same ones because they never got thwapped with a wooden spoon. It's like watching a kid steal candy and having their parent give them a pat on the back so they do it again. It's beyond facepalm.
Blackwulf
N00b
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I think that's why I have a hard time with some of the guys on this site. I was really disappointed with a lot of the MMO's that came out in the last 10 years, but I DID play all the ones I was looking forward to for at least a month or two. I got MY money's worth. The only 3 MMOs that I have spent significant time in are EQ, DAOC, and DDO. Along the way I got my money's worth out of SB, L2, EQ2, WAR, AOC, SWTOR. I beta'd several others, and decided not to spend money on them (Vanguard for instance.)
So, maybe that's why I am not too bitter and jaded to look forward to a new MMO. I'm more of a glass half full. I had some fun in each of those games listed, but I DID end up leaving all of them. I left and went back to DAOC about 6 times. I've been back to DDO 4 or 5 times. As long as I'm entertained, what's to be pissed about? Are you expecting each new MMO to change your life? You'll always be disappointed if that's the case, bud.
Now, to try to get back on topic a little, since this IS a thread about TESO, anyone wanna take a stab at this topic:
DAOC had good pvp - few people will contest that. WAR was considered by many to be a spiritual successor to DAOC, mainly because it was made by many of the original Mythic people (Mark Jacobs, etc.) When considering how WAR failed to live up to the legacy of DAOC, do you have any hope for TESO doing any better? I have thought about why WAR failed for ME, and it seems like TESO will avoid some of those pitfalls, but what do you guys think?
Utnayan
I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
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Which pitfalls are those you would be referring to in comparison to the two games?
Blackwulf
N00b
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Okay, I'll list what I'veheard, and yes, I'm emphasizing that because I don't want you to start saying a bunch of shit about how I am just repeating bullshit lies from the devs. This is info that has been released, and if they are not lying, then I'll be happy:
1. WAR only had 2 factions. TESO will have 3 factions, and as much as people laugh at this distinction, I think that 3 factions helps to provide balance in a large scale war.
2. WAR had RVR mini zones all over the place called "RVR Lakes" - these pulled the action into too many areas, especially on sparsely populated servers. TESO is only going to have one massive place to PVP in, called Cyrodiil - supposedly the same map size as all of Oblivion.
3. WAR had instant PVP matches you could queue for from any point in the world. You were instantly teleported into the match and it had nothing to do with the overall war effort. I read a dev statement that said the only pvp in TESO will be in Cyrodiil. This contradicted the early Game Informer article that said there would be arena matches, but I'm hoping GI was full of shit.
4. WAR had servers. Many of those servers were ghost towns after the first couple of months. This really killed the pvp population when you add it to points 2 and 3. TESO will have the Megaserver and every instance of Cyrodiil should be populated.
5. WAR didn't provide much incentive for RVR - the realm point advancement was fluff that did jack shit. TESO has promised a robust character advancement with 'alliance points.'
6. WAR didn't have any PVE going on in the RVR areas. TESO devs claim that there will be a living world in Cyrodiil - villages, quests, dungeons, points of interest, etc. This will draw more action into the pvp area.
Well, there are 6 reasons I am hoping TESO can pull off what WAR failed to do. What do you guys think?
A game is not successful if everyone does this. A subscription based MMO is not made to conveniently get your "moneys worth" of gameplay and then quit. The subscription is there because they want to make money perpetually from players excited to login and play their game. I think the majority want a new MMO to be that game they can be engaged in for a years.
Blackwulf
N00b
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Sure, I want that too. I just can't get all fired up and mad when a company fails. I was kind of sad about Vanguard and WAR, I felt bad about all those people losing their jobs, but I didn't take it personally. Actually I was pissed at Mark Jacobs for a while, but that's cause he hired that fucking Paul Barnett guy, and I hated him from day 1.
Hatorade
A nice asshole.
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Forced grouping, with a dungeon/objective finder, make it so.
Anything you want to do should require a group and I mean everything. Aside from the obvious kill shit:
Want to forge a weapon? Need someone to work the forge, while you put hammer to steel. Want to enchant that weapon you need to manage the focus crystal while the other guy adds and shapes the magic. Want to slam your dick in a door? Hold that dick steady while some one gets to slaming
Results are a team effort and vary with each persons skill. Both parties get xp and skill ups etc, legendaries require a guild of people!
Anything you want to do should require a group and I mean everything. Aside from the obvious kill shit:
Want to forge a weapon? Need someone to work the forge, while you put hammer to steel. Want to enchant that weapon you need to manage the focus crystal while the other guy adds and shapes the magic. Want to slam your dick in a door? Hold that dick steady while some one gets to slaming
Results are a team effort and vary with each persons skill. Both parties get xp and skill ups etc, legendaries require a guild of people!