The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

McFly

McFly

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Cybsled said:
Except Sam is looking to prove him wrong
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I understand Sam's motivations here. But to arbitrarily bring race into a discussion of honor and motives — diminishes any sacrifices as to the greater good. Race has nothing to do with it, and the sooner people understand that the sooner we can rip our heads out of this ancient way of thinking.

Be a good human being. Period.
 
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Khane

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That's pretty much what Sam was saying....

That scene will probably make a lot of the woke crowd angry. The other dude actually called any black man who took up the shield a race traitor... and Sam, who was disagreeing with him... took up the shield. He was saying "Fuck you" to that mentality.
 
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Gavinmad

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I feel like Sam should have shown some spine and disagreed with Isaiah to his face instead of just slinking away to his sister's house before finding his balls.
 
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Khane

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Gavinmad said:
I feel like Sam should have shown some spine and disagreed with Isaiah to his face instead of just slinking away to his sister's house before finding his balls.
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Why does he need to say anything to an old, bitter man? He's going to show him by becoming Captain fucking America.
 
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McFly

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Khane said:
That's pretty mucSh what Sam was saying...
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Agreed. But the writers need to force race into the dialogue so there's no ambiguity? Bullshit.

If you suck as a human being and are not worthy to wield something — then bringing race into the debate is a straw man argument that is irrelevant.

My point being that race is being brought up into a narrative that doesn't need it to be brought up.

Disagree with me if you like, but this conversation of race when discussing anything related to fantasy/comic book material is simply grandstanding for ratings. Period.
 
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Sterling

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Gavinmad said:
I feel like Sam should have shown some spine and disagreed with Isaiah to his face instead of just slinking away to his sister's house before finding his balls.
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Sam's just the kind of person to defer certain people more than he really should.
 
Khane

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McFly said:
Agreed. But the writers need to force race into the dialogue so there's no ambiguity? Bullshit.

If you suck as a human being and are not worthy to wield something — then bringing race into the debate is a straw man argument that is irrelevant.

My point being that race is being brought up into a narrative that doesn't need it to be brought up.

Disagree with me if you like, but this conversation of race when discussing anything related to fantasy/comic book material is simply grandstanding for ratings. Period.
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I think you're missing the forest for the trees. That entire episode was about Sam saying, to the entire world, especially his own people "You want me to be Malcom X. I'm going to be Martin Luther King Jr"

It was actually pretty well done. It showed the thought process of today's world, for a lot of people, and showed Sam being a man trying to rise above it all, albeit a little late and after the fact. And finally taking HIS stand.
 
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McFly

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Khane said:
I think you're missing the forest for the trees. That entire episode was about Sam saying, to the entire world, especially his own people "You want me to be Malcom X. I'm going to be Martin Luther King Jr"

It was actually pretty well done. It showed the thought process of today's world, for a lot of people, and showed Sam being a man trying to rise above it all, albeit a little late and after the fact. And finally taking HIS stand.
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I see the underlying message that the episode was trying to get across / advance the plot.

But by implying that there should be a racial motivation that inspires Sam to do this is reprehensible. It's NOT needed here.

There are so many other ways that a person might be kept down or oppressed, but the writers, by including a racial component, isolate it as a 'means to and end'.

I swear to god I thought the MCU would be above even bothering with using this as a way to prop up a protagonist, but I guess even they have to rely on race being a determining factor.


It's a good show so far, but shitty writing is shitty writing. And this episode was a terrible example of writing.
 
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Gavinmad

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Khane said:
I think you're missing the forest for the trees. That entire episode was about Sam saying, to the entire world, especially his own people "You want me to be Malcom X. I'm going to be Martin Luther King Jr"

It was actually pretty well done. It showed the thought process of today's world, for a lot of people, and showed Sam being a man trying to rise above it all, albeit a little late and after the fact. And finally taking HIS stand.
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There is some mixed messaging when it comes to the race stuff.
 
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Araysar

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Chukzombi said:
im glad Bucky apologized for being white, and he was so courteous to apologize for Steve as well. lol fuck this shit.
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Wow sounds like this show is going great
 
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Khane

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McFly said:
I see the underlying message that the episode was trying to get across / advance the plot.

But by implying that there should be a racial motivation that inspires Sam to do this is reprehensible. It's NOT needed here.

There are so many other ways that a person might be kept down or oppressed, but the writers, by including a racial component, isolate it as a 'means to and end'.

I swear to god I thought the MCU would be above even bothering with using this as a way to prop up a protagonist, but I guess even they have to rely on race being a determining factor.


It's a good show so far, but shitty writing is shitty writing. And this episode was a terrible example of writing.
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This is why I'm saying you're missing the forest for the trees. Sam respected Steve Rogers so much he has risen above rhetoric.

I know that a lot of you brittle, frail, echo chamber nerds have lost sight of reality, but the way they are addressing reality with Sam's character is incredibly reasonable
 
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Khane

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Gavinmad said:
There is some mixed messaging when it comes to the race stuff.
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I'd say the only mixed message was the hamfisted convo between Bucky and Sam at the end when he says "Sorry for admonishing you for giving up the shield. I forgot you were black"

That was definitely hamfisted and lazy.
 
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McFly

McFly

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Khane said:
This is why I'm saying you're missing the forest for the trees. Sam respected Steve Rogers so much he has risen above rhetoric.

I know that a lot of you brittle, frail, echo chamber nerds have lost sight of reality, but the way they are addressing reality with Sam's character is incredibly reasonable
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Dude are you a retarded idiot or do you just feel personally attacked if anyone says race is not needed as a motivation in a fantasy narrative?

Sam's motivation does NOT need a simple, mongoloid motivation like race. I agree with you, you fucking lunatic, he's beyond the need to feel that motivation. But the writers felt that it added something to the story. When in fact it did NOTHING to motivate the character.
 
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Khane

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You do realize that this show is painting the extremists you hate so much as the villains and not the heroes right? That's the fucking point.
 
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McFly

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Khane said:
You do realize that this show is painting the extremists you hate so much as the villains and not the heroes right? That's the fucking point.
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Of course I don't see that. I'm a prepubescent teenager that never went to school and needs to be told what to think about how a character should feel. /sarcasm

The bullshit, sanctimonious, indoctrination that writing like this induces is the core problem with trying to blend social mores with fantasy. It doesn't work.
 
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McFly

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Oh yeah and another thing.

I WANT Sam to take up this mantle! NOT because he somehow feels obligated to or guilted into; but to dive willingly into it.

I want Sam to arrive at this conclusion himself! Not by having bullshit rhetoric dialogue spewed at him by high school level, English dropout writers.

What Capt stood for is all that matters. Race has NOTHING to do with the mantle that Captain America exemplified. He was beyond such insignificant details. Race does NOT belong as a part of a narrative for a fucking comic book movie.

So hence, when I see writers, forcing a contemporary narrative on a established character; yeah it pisses me off. And quite frankly, it should piss you off too.

/done
 
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Khane

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McFly said:
I WANT Sam to take up this mantle! NOT because he somehow feels obligated to or guilted into; but to dive willingly into it.
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This is literally, exactly what happened.

But apparently you think allegory is a brand new plot device.
 
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McFly

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Khane said:
This is literally, exactly what happened.

But apparently you think allegory is a brand new plot device.
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If you think; by jamming an allegorical comparison on this trite somehow makes it less patronizing, then my sympathies to you.

The Bible is an allegory. What the writers of this episode were doing, was by no means allegorical to anything. (Other than to modern bullshit rhetoric).

They're trying to gain ratings by placating to the idiots of the world. I don't care for that type of entertainment, and neither should any self respecting fan of the source material.
 
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Gavinmad

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Khane said:
I'd say the only mixed message was the hamfisted convo between Bucky and Sam at the end when he says "Sorry for admonishing you for giving up the shield. I forgot you were black"

That was definitely hamfisted and lazy.
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Or how they bookended the initial meeting with Isaiah with a 'Why do I have to be "Black" Falcon' comment from Sam which came across as an admonition of identity politics, but then as they were leaving they got stopped and treated differently by the cops (which did end up being funny since Bucky had a warrant out)
 
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Sterling

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Societal commentary has been a part of mainstream comics since pretty much forever. Sometimes it's way overdone and hamfisted, and sometimes it's well done and makes for a good story with everything in between.
 
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