The Fermi Paradox -- Where is everybody?

Aaron

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I've thought about this a lot, especially a few years back when I was deeply into all sorts of UFO conspiracy stuff. My opinion is as follows:

I think that life in the universe is unbelievably common. We keep on pushing back the boundaries for environments that can support life, while at the same time finding the building blocks of life in more and more locations in our solar system, and even elsewhere. I would be really surprised if we did not find evidence for life on other planets or moons of our solar system within 20 years (I'm talking about microbial life here).

That means complex life may be relatively common too. Now, the problem therefore lies not in a lack of "aliens", but in communication. Depending on who you ask, modern humans have been on this planet between 50,000 to 200,000 years. Yet it is only during the last century or so, and more accurately, the last half century if we are brutally honest, that we are in some way aware that there may be other life out there, and searching for it. And when you add in the relatively high likelihood that we may destroy our civilisation, or at least set it back for a good while, through an atomic miscalculation or major war, then our time span for searching for such life is very short.

If advanced alien life follows a similar evolution then there would be a very small chance of finding them. How many alien civilisations were broadcasting their Hitler speeches and episodes of The Simpsons into the ether for their ~50-200 year life span before nuking themselves to hell, while we were busy living in caves?

Then there is the other side of the question, would all civilisations embark on a similar technological course as we have? Again, take radio, that which we spew forth into the ether ourselves. Most of it is done for purposes of communication and entertainment. What if their need for using radio frequencies were far less than ours? They might have jumped over them for the most part in favour of something more advanced (quantum teleportation?) without a lot of detectable emissions.

There is also the thought of life communicating in vastly different means than technological. What if shroomers like Terrence McKenna (my avatar) are actually in some way correct, that psychedelics is a medium for communicating with other, real, but non corporal alien entities? Might we be the odd ball in the universe in our technological focus as opposed to "higher" consciousness?

Not going to make this any longer, but the point I'm trying to make (I think) is that the main flaw of the Fermi equations is that the rely so much on our own view of how advanced life would evolve its civilisations. It's not a flaw as such, in that we have to start from some point to try and figure this out, but the paradox might lie in a fault in the equation's principles themselves, than in a lack of advanced alien life.
 
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Qhue

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I've spent more time thinking about this than I care to admit. Through it all a few similar conclusions as above have occurred to me, mostly involving that we are just a spec on the outskirts of nowhere but also that we as a culture just now rang the doorbell and so it is somewhat unreasonable to expect anyone to answer the door quite yet.

There's also a strong case for a reverse anthropic principle to apply -- perhaps no one is talking to / visiting us simply because they don't want to. Not that they don't like us, but that they just don't see any value in exploring / communicating as we do. It may be that we are an infant society that very much wants to contact others, but by the time you get to a technological level to be able to do so there's no clear benefit to doing it.
 
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Lendarios

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wormie wormie What is the difference in your argument, of "what if, if our current understanding of science is wrong", vs the argument of "There is a god, and he is shielding us from alien species by making our planet invisible"

In order to get anywhere in this philosophical argument, we have to accept certain baselines, such as, you can not travel faster than light.

Why this baseline, because that is what our current science knowledge has discovered.
 
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mkopec

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Man is considered to be a toolmaker though. From the first rock we tied to end of a stick, to the modern shit we have now like jets, rockets, cellphones are nothing but tools. So are we just to assume other intelligent life must have this intrinsic drive to build tools like we do? It's pretty naive to think so.
 
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Asshat wormie

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wormie wormie What is the difference in your argument, of "what if, if our current understanding of science is wrong", vs the argument of "There is a god, and he is shielding us from alien species by making our planet invisible"

In order to get anywhere in this philosophical argument, we have to accept certain baselines, such as, you can not travel faster than light.

Why this baseline, because that is what our current science knowledge has discovered.
The difference is that what I mentioned is a theory derived from the mathematics. God is derived from hallucinations of morons.
 
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Lendarios

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The difference is that what I mentioned is a theory derived from the mathematics. God is derived from hallucinations of morons.

That does not makes it true.

String theory is also derived from very smart people, it also doesn't make it real.
 
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Tuco

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This debate and thread cracks me up. It reminds me of religious debates between true believers both in how impossible it is to know and prove solutions to the paradox and how quickly people choose and defend their arbitrary and unprovable beliefs.

Meanwhile, I am confident that we just need enough prayers to unlock the intergalactic civilization DLC.
 
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Loser Araysar

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This debate and thread cracks me up. It reminds me of religious debates between true believers both in how impossible it is to know and prove solutions to the paradox and how quickly people choose and defend their arbitrary and unprovable beliefs.

Meanwhile, I am confident that we just need enough prayers to unlock the intergalactic civilization DLC.
i hope its more of an expansion rather just a DLC. its a lot of prayers
 
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yerm

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This debate and thread cracks me up. It reminds me of religious debates between true believers both in how impossible it is to know and prove solutions to the paradox and how quickly people choose and defend their arbitrary and unprovable beliefs.

Meanwhile, I am confident that we just need enough prayers to unlock the intergalactic civilization DLC.

Usually when religions release DLC they break the game and are incompatible with one another. At least some religions allow modding though; science has been pretty bad about that and demanding core game only, although a few biology ones recently started allowing free reign to mod.

For serious though... I do laugh at how often science arguments bend into philosophy. I suspect many people just wanna argue what they want to argue, and will drag any context towards their agenda.
 
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Grim1

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Life is probably common.
Intelligent life is probably common.
Idiots like Kim Jung Il are probably common in every "intelligent" species.
Planets devoid of life because of nuclear fall out are probably common.
 
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Asshat wormie

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wormie wormie

In order to get anywhere in this philosophical argument, we have to accept certain baselines, such as, you can not travel faster than light.
Also special relativity caps speed at speed of light. General relativity allows for speeds greater than that. Outside of local space, speeds greater than light are possible and do occur.

Also if we assume multi world interpretation, which is suggested by the math, it is also possible that level two universes exist. In such universes the laws of physics are different and and in some the speed of light local cap doesn't exist.
 
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Brad2770

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What if right now the current alien president of the United Planets issued a travel ban and during his 200 years in office, we couldn't go there if we wanted. They even restricted travel to our planet.

Seriously though, why can't we be the first? There would have to be one and it's not above thinking we are it.
 
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pharmakos

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Best article I've ever read on this subject, and it was linked by someone here. The Fermi Paradox - Wait But Why

i agree with Void that this is the best article i've ever read on the subject. i read it several years ago, but it was just as good reading it again. highly recommended reading for anyone that hasn't read it yet.
 
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Grim1

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Ok, my previous post was just for luls.

For reals, there is something basic that we are not aware of. Perhaps intelligent (that uses technology) life is extremely rare, almost statistically impossible. Perhaps intelligent life all evolves very quickly into energy spheres or some such. Maybe they all communicate with unknown physics. Or maybe there are big bad ugly machines that destroy everything that sends out a message. Something is keeping intelligent species from signalling their presence in a way that we can see.

It's impossible to say what that is at this point because we don't know.

Because even if you use extremely small values for the Drake equation, there should still be tons of alien civilizations millions (even billions) of years more advanced than ours though out the universe. Even if we are the only intelligent species in this galaxy or those nearby, there are still billions upon billions of galaxies out there. We should be able to see some evidence of their existence with massive works, etc. We don't, anywhere. Before you could claim it's because we haven't looked hard enough. But that isn't so true anymore.

I personally believe that alien civs are fairly common. Perhaps 1 or 2 per galaxy. And someday we will figure out why we can't see them.
 
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Void

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One thing this (and similar) topics tends to show is how otherwise rational seeming people can be a little nutburgers about some things. I realize that none of us have proof of anything, and probably never will during our lifetimes, but it is amazing some of the things people believe. Not just in this thread either; I've had similar discussions with my crazy coworkers. Well ok, that's a bad example because they aren't really rational about other things either, that was mainly for you guys. They are convinced there is no way we could have made the technological advances we have without alien help, even when I ask them for specifics and then research the "tech tree" that lead to it, they still don't think humans are smart enough to have developed things like the computer or microwaves, etc. That's about the point I tell them that maybe they aren't smart enough, but plenty of the rest of us are. Strangely enough, they get offended by that, even though they are the ones that just called everyone stupid.
 
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Tuco

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One thing this (and similar) topics tends to show is how otherwise rational seeming people can be a little nutburgers about some things. I realize that none of us have proof of anything, and probably never will during our lifetimes, but it is amazing some of the things people believe. Not just in this thread either; I've had similar discussions with my crazy coworkers. Well ok, that's a bad example because they aren't really rational about other things either, that was mainly for you guys. They are convinced there is no way we could have made the technological advances we have without alien help, even when I ask them for specifics and then research the "tech tree" that lead to it, they still don't think humans are smart enough to have developed things like the computer or microwaves, etc. That's about the point I tell them that maybe they aren't smart enough, but plenty of the rest of us are. Strangely enough, they get offended by that, even though they are the ones that just called everyone stupid.
Microwaves are one of those things that seem much cooler before you learn how they work.
 
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maskedmelon

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were it not for the vritually identical fleshsuits we wear, an unremarkable individual would be no more recognizable to a dullard than a genius would be to the unremarkable. how is it reasonable to assume we would be capable of recognizing entities magnitudes more intelligent than us?
 
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BrotherWu

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Maybe this discussion is part of the universal simulation. A bunch of nerdy sims standing around a forum water cooler with thought bubbles popping up over their heads while Q's teenage son about to launch nukes from NK or send a gamma ray burst in our direction just for yuks.
 
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