The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies (2014)

Campbell1oo4

Campbell1oo4

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Could the eagles have flown into Mordor without Sauron seeing? Because if they did fly in and Sauron see's them, he can just tell the Orcs to storm Mt. Doom and take the ring/shoot the eagles with bows (I guess it becomes a race to see who can get there first). Also, wouldn't the Nazgul start attacking the Eagles, maybe while they are waiting for Frodo to run in and out of the mountain?

Maybe the eagles couldn't get into Mordor because of the dark magic of Sauron? And it was only when he was defeated that they could fly anywhere near Mt. Doom.

Anyways, it's a fantasy story. Stop trying to breathe logic into it and enjoy it.
 
Muligan

Muligan

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Feanor_sl said:
I've been looking for a post in here that mentioned the RISE OF SAURON but I give up. That is exactly the kind of name that Hollywood? would come up with so +1 to you good sir.

lol jk

And yep, the eagles are a contrivance. But shit is like that son. This ain't no Starr Treks.
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That was me... I had my Michael Bay thinking cap on and thought of Rise of Sauron. The underlying seriousness though, I would like to see a movie or HBO mini-series showing Morgoth's fall, Sauron's rise and creation of the ring, the War of the Last Alliance, and then his defeat. You could bridge the series by showing the death of Isildur and Smeagol find the ring, killing his friend, and saying "my precious". (Essentially reusing the scenes from the beginning of RotK)

I would call it The Second Age... Rise of Sauron was somewhat of a jab at Hollywood lol
 
Siddar

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Royal_sl said:
It was to show that in spite of all the dread and gloom, in spite of the elves finally acknowledging the realization of their long defeat in their struggles against Sauron and leaving Middle-earth, that there were still powers in the world, some of them unlikely, capable of resisting him and his most powerful of devices. This was one of overarching themes of the books; strength in unlooked for places.
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I don't think you can say the elves were defeated as much as they simply chose to leave.

Sauron's old boss was the one who commanded the Balrogs and created the Dragons both of whom Sauron isn't it seems able to command. The elves were able to destroy that head bad guy Melkor in there time. Sauron is simply in command of a remnant of Melkor's army. Galadriel banishes Sauron in hobbit so you have one elf seemingly stronger then Sauron right there.

Sauron is a threat to man simply because humans are just not as strong as the elves were and the elves are leaving middle earth.
 
Jysin

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Galadriel has one of the rings of power, hence her crazy bitch mode during that fight. I think that was the reason she could banish Sauron (weakened with no ring, no physical form, etc). Nothing to do with her power "as an elf".
 
Gavinmad

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Siddar_sl said:
I don't think you can say the elves were defeated as much as they simply chose to leave.

Sauron's old boss was the one who commanded the Balrogs and created the Dragons both of whom Sauron isn't it seems able to command. The elves were able to destroy that head bad guy Melkor in there time. Sauron is simply in command of a remnant of Melkor's army. Galadriel banishes Sauron in hobbit so you have one elf seemingly stronger then Sauron right there.

Sauron is a threat to man simply because humans are just not as strong as the elves were and the elves are leaving middle earth.
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Uh, Galadriel banishing Sauron is strictly a nonsensical movie fabrication to tie in with her being tempted by the power of the One Ring. In the brief description of the events at Dol Guldur in the books, it merely says that Sauron fled when the White Council attacked Dol Guldur. It doesn't say anything about Galadriel beating him in a Super Saiyan duel. He openly declares himself in Mordor 10 years later and sends some of his Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur, and they repeatedly attack Lorien during the War of the Ring. This is where Galadriel goes Super Saiyan, driving back the armies and eventually destroying Dol Guldur itself with the power of Nenya.

The elves are no match for Sauron by themselves, they are every bit as diminished a people as the men of the west are. The things that Elves were able to do in the First Age of middle earth are completely irrelevant to any discussion of what they are capable of in the Third Age.
 
Siddar

Siddar

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Gavinmad_sl said:
Uh, Galadriel banishing Sauron is strictly a nonsensical movie fabrication to tie in with her being tempted by the power of the One Ring. In the brief description of the events at Dol Guldur in the books, it merely says that Sauron fled when the White Council attacked Dol Guldur. It doesn't say anything about Galadriel beating him in a Super Saiyan duel. He openly declares himself in Mordor 10 years later and sends some of his Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur, and they repeatedly attack Lorien during the War of the Ring. This is where Galadriel goes Super Saiyan, driving back the armies and eventually destroying Dol Guldur itself with the power of Nenya.

The elves are no match for Sauron by themselves, they are every bit as diminished a people as the men of the west are. The things that Elves were able to do in the First Age of middle earth are completely irrelevant to any discussion of what they are capable of in the Third Age.
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Its important to understand that most elves of first age didn't die they simply left. Galadriel predates the first age before elves even came to middle earth. New elves as they were born were diminished existing elves don't appear to diminish. That's why you get super Jedi elf lords in hobbit then Legolas being weaker but still superhuman then you have Tauriel and normal elf warriors. The fact they were getting weaker is one of the main reason they leave middle earth but if they had not been leaving for millenniums prior to LoTR then they would have had no real issues in dealing with Sauron LoTR.
 
Royal

Royal

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Siddar_sl said:
I don't think you can say the elves were defeated as much as they simply chose to leave.
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Their defeat was the inability to preserve that which they loved and valued in Middle-earth, including themselves. If the One Ring was destroyed then the power of the Three would also be broken, and the decay of all they had tried to preserve would accelerate. If the One was never destroyed, then Sauron couldn't be defeated once and for all and he would actively destroy that which they valued. In reality, their defeat was to Morgoth. It was he who introduced decay and corruption to Middle-earth. Even after his final banishment, that remained and it was that which they struggled to undo.

As for Galadriel, she is probably the second most powerful being left in Middle-earth, after Sauron. In Valinor, she was considered exceptional even by the Valar. Galadriel + The One Ring would probably have been more than Sauron could handle, but of course that has a catch. She certainly rivaled him in his diminished state without the ring.
 
Siddar

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Royal_sl said:
Their defeat was the inability to preserve that which they loved and valued in Middle-earth, including themselves. If the One Ring was destroyed then the power of the Three would also be broken, and the decay of all they had tried to preserve would accelerate. If the One was never destroyed, then Sauron couldn't be defeated once and for all and he would actively destroy that which they valued. In reality, their defeat was to Morgoth. It was he who introduced decay and corruption to Middle-earth. Even after his final banishment, that remained and it was that which they struggled to undo.

As for Galadriel, she is probably the second most powerful being left in Middle-earth, after Sauron. In Valinor, she was considered exceptional even by the Valar. Galadriel + The One Ring would probably have been more than Sauron could handle, but of course that has a catch. She certainly rivaled him in his diminished state without the ring.
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The elves by the time of LoTR were a minor remnant of the prior elf presence in middle earth. The vast majority of elves had already left. I don't think elves were trying to preserve anything at that point. The question was stay and stop Sauron from wiping out the humans or simply leave them to there fate. The vast majority simply left thousands of years before LoTR. Once the one ring was gone the remnant packed up and left middle earth to man.

Morgoth maybe the source of the corruption that caused the elves to diminish in middle earth. But really there was no way the elves could prevent that from happening and they would be aware of that fact. Good and evil coming to middle earth was preordained from the very beginning. The elves knew that and understood the only way to stop the diminishing was to take there semi immortal buts out of middle earth in the long run.

Just as the corruption Morgoth brought to middle earth can be claimed to have defeated the elves the fact that those same elves defeated Morgath and then Sauron before they finally left middle earth would indicate the elves did in fact win on both accounts.
 
Royal

Royal

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"He has dwelt in the west since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." - Galadriel speaking of Celeborn,The Fellowship of The Ring
 
Aychamo BanBan

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Siddar_sl said:
The elves by the time of LoTR were a minor remnant of the prior elf presence in middle earth. The vast majority of elves had already left. I don't think elves were trying to preserve anything at that point. The question was stay and stop Sauron from wiping out the humans or simply leave them to there fate. The vast majority simply left thousands of years before LoTR. Once the one ring was gone the remnant packed up and left middle earth to man.

Morgoth maybe the source of the corruption that caused the elves to diminish in middle earth. But really there was no way the elves could prevent that from happening and they would be aware of that fact. Good and evil coming to middle earth was preordained from the very beginning. The elves knew that and understood the only way to stop the diminishing was to take there semi immortal buts out of middle earth in the long run.

Just as the corruption Morgoth brought to middle earth can be claimed to have defeated the elves the fact that those same elves defeated Morgath and then Sauron before they finally left middle earth would indicate the elves did in fact win on both accounts.
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Where can I read more about elves in the first age and their powers and shit?
 
Siddar

Siddar

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Royal_sl said:
"He has dwelt in the west since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." - Galadriel speaking of Celeborn,The Fellowship of The Ring
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If you define defeat as basically preventing evil from existing then yes they lost.

Sense that goal was completely absurd and they killed the main sources of that evil and then the minor reoccurrence of it before voluntary leaving middle earth on there own accord. While basically handing the keys to place over to there chosen successors. Then no I don't consider them defeated
 
Royal

Royal

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When I originally spoke of their defeat, it was as they defined it; their terms (or rather how Tolkein defined it through them). If you choose to define it differently, oh well.
 
Feanor

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Muligan_sl said:
That was me... I had my Michael Bay thinking cap on and thought of Rise of Sauron. The underlying seriousness though, I would like to see a movie or HBO mini-series showing Morgoth's fall, Sauron's rise and creation of the ring, the War of the Last Alliance, and then his defeat. You could bridge the series by showing the death of Isildur and Smeagol find the ring, killing his friend, and saying "my precious". (Essentially reusing the scenes from the beginning of RotK)

I would call it The Second Age... Rise of Sauron was somewhat of a jab at Hollywood lol
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Yeah I thought I picked up on a smidgen of sarcasm in there lol

That's one of my top movies that will never be made, but should, but probably would piss me off/jizz myself/get pissed again/jizz again etc.

I posted a movie 'idea' for the Sil here a looong ass time ago. To tell that story would take at least 30 hours,at least. An HBO mini-series would likely be the best option, or maybe even a really well done animated series. Maybe live action would never truly capture the epicness that is the First and Second ages. Though I'd prefer live action if it came to it.

I do look forward to watching the Hobbit movies, although I'm sure I won't like them. I'm sure the Rankin & Bass cartoon is still the best adaptation, nostalgia aside.
 
Feanor

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The Noldor viewed it as a defeat that was inevitable. The Valar told them when the world was still young not to forsake Eldamar, not to return to Middle-earth in vengeance. But they were young and eventually they figured it out, long after Feanor's oath (the first dickhead ever born) and all of the bloodshed that ensued.

Quite obviously it's based on theological concepts infused into the fiction (sub-creation). It's tied to the marring of Arda, the theft of the Silmarils, which could never be recovered no matter what they did, the death of the Trees of light which the Eldar cherished above all else, and that ties into Men, which the elves do not fully understand. The entire story including LotR is one long war that never ends.

From the elves' point of view, specifically those who remained, they were already defeated before they ever fought Morgoth, let alone Sauron. And they didn't defeat the true Dark Lord, for it was Earendil the Half-Elven, who wore a Silmaril upon his brow, that sought the West and entered it, and the Valar fell upon Middle-earth only after that and not before.

Not saying your interpretation is wrong, Siddar, but in this sense Royal is technically right.

*nerdmode ON

Happy new year, everybody
 
Phazael

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^This.

Basically, the Valar came down and laid down the law against Morgoth and Eru (God essentially) put forth the edict that forbid the Valar and most of the Maiar from ever interfering in the world directly, ever again. But then Sauron came back and the Ishtari (wizards) were sent in as a sort of loophole to help people win on their own against Sauron. Kind of a short shitty synopsis, but the Simarillian takes hours to explain.
 
T

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Feanor_sl said:
The Noldor viewed it as a defeat that was inevitable. The Valar told them when the world was still young not to forsake Eldamar, not to return to Middle-earth in vengeance. But they were young and eventually they figured it out, long after Feanor's oath (the first dickhead ever born) and all of the bloodshed that ensued.

Quite obviously it's based on theological concepts infused into the fiction (sub-creation). It's tied to the marring of Arda, the theft of the Silmarils, which could never be recovered no matter what they did, the death of the Trees of light which the Eldar cherished above all else, and that ties into Men, which the elves do not fully understand. The entire story including LotR is one long war that never ends.

From the elves' point of view, specifically those who remained, they were already defeated before they ever fought Morgoth, let alone Sauron. And they didn't defeat the true Dark Lord, for it was Earendil the Half-Elven, who wore a Silmaril upon his brow, that sought the West and entered it, and the Valar fell upon Middle-earth only after that and not before.

Not saying your interpretation is wrong, Siddar, but in this sense Royal is technically right.

*nerdmode ON

Happy new year, everybody
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Man, you turned nerdmode onaftermaking that post?! I shudder to think what you must be like right now.
 
Aychamo BanBan

Aychamo BanBan

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Man. I'm 85 minutes into the extended edition fellowship of the ring. I forgot how much better these were. You feel genuine fear for the characters. No ridiculous "fall ten thousand feet and thnof brush off your ass and walk away." The villains look great. Characters are awesome.

It's crazy how much PJ fucked up the hobbits. I remember Theoden (Bernard hill?) in the "extras" just saying how amazing his armor was and how every piece was a hand crafted piece of art, and how they hired chain mail people to just make armor for like three years straight. And then we have Dain in the hobbit whose entire character is CGI. We lost all that realism and shit with the lazy use of computers. It just sucked in comparison.
 
Muligan

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aychamo_aycono_sl said:
Man. I'm 85 minutes into the extended edition fellowship of the ring. I forgot how much better these were. You feel genuine fear for the characters. No ridiculous "fall ten thousand feet and thnof brush off your ass and walk away." The villains look great. Characters are awesome.

It's crazy how much PJ fucked up the hobbits. I remember Theoden (Bernard hill?) in the "extras" just saying how amazing his armor was and how every piece was a hand crafted piece of art, and how they hired chain mail people to just make armor for like three years straight. And then we have Dain in the hobbit whose entire character is CGI. We lost all that realism and shit with the lazy use of computers. It just sucked in comparison.
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While I agree with you 100% and find it very unfortunate PJ took this direction, I believe you also cannot recreate our first experience with Middle-Earth or its characters. The expectations were just set so high with LotR any little change would be heart breaking. I say all this because we could have easily been exposed to these decisions in the LotR but we were not.... I'm curious how LotR would have been received if some of these decisions found their way into them. I also wonder how it would have impacted the perception of The Hobbit franchise.

Anyway... I think you just have to take The Hobbit for what they're worth and not set them next to LotR or you will be sorely disappointed. I'm still holding out that the EE's will redeem some of my complaints with The Hobbit. Regardless i'm just glad they're made and we have 6 movies of the stories we know and love.

My hope is during the dwarf/elf love scene they edit in the Intermission scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail so I can go to the bathroom or something. I can't tell you how much better I would view the last two installments if that part would have simply been dropped.
 
Malinatar

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Movie (and the entire trilogy) was 'OK'. Not a Tolkien nerd or purist by any means, but was spoiled by the LoTR movie adaptations like us all.

Was this asked before? who is the most powerful being in Middle Earth?Ask About Middle Earth

Who is Tom Bombadil?
 
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