The Hobbit

Royal

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It looks like we know when we will see Legolas. I hope they don't have him to get to involved, because that was easily one of my favorite parts of the book.
Legolas being involved isn't likely to be as much of a distraction as the other elf shown on that box. I can't make out the name but I think that it's the elf chick that was never in any of the books at all. Jackson and Walsh created her because Tolkien didn't include enough prominent females for their tastes.
 

Aychamo BanBan

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Legolas being involved isn't likely to be as much of a distraction as the other elf shown on that box. I can't make out the name but I think that it's the elf chick that was never in any of the books at all. Jackson and Walsh created her because Tolkien didn't include enough prominent females for their tastes.
Looks like exactly who it is. Evangeline Lily.

Also, interesting fabrication for the scene. I thought Bilbo freed them all from the spiders, but then they were so exhausted they gave up when they found the elf camp? Or did the elves attack them while in spider webs?
 

Royal

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You're remembering it right. Bilbo freed them and fought the spiders while they made their escape to one of the elf clearings, where they were taken prisoner.
 

Lithose

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All this wondering why Gandalf didn't roam around with the perma pimp hand and no one asking why Galadriel didn't do the same thing. She destroyed Dol Guldur by singing at it at the end of the War of the Ring. Talk about something that would have been handy earlier on.
Or Glorfindel (SP?)...I mean, he was an elf that literally killed Balrogs like Aragorn killed orcs. I know by the Third Age he's "diminished" with the other Elves, but the guy is still strong enough to scare all 9 of the Nazgul, at once.

Tolkien was like the DM/Game Designer that had his favorite NPC's, which he made super-powerful because he didn't want anyone fucking with them, but he never intended for them to do anything in the story.
 

Chris

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With Gandalf/Galadriel/Elrond there is also their rings at play, they don't use them much to keep them secret. They hardly use them in LotR to avoid getting mind controlled by Sauron.
 

Vardisk_sl

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All this wondering why Gandalf didn't roam around with the perma pimp hand and no one asking why Galadriel didn't do the same thing. She destroyed Dol Guldur by singing at it at the end of the War of the Ring. Talk about something that would have been handy earlier on.
Gandalf specifically didn't like using his power unless he absolutely had to.
 

etchazz

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"The book is more elaborate on this point than the film, and Peter Jackson also explains the reason during the audio commentary on the dvd. The Eagles did not take sides in the War of the Ring until the end, so they would not have assisted Frodo when he started his quest. This is similar to the Ents, who only participated when they felt they were drawn in by Saruman. The Eagles are also very proud creatures, who will not allow themselves to be used as just a means of transportation. The Eagle, Gwahir, that rescued Gandalf (Ian McKellen) from the tower of Saruman (Christopher Lee) did so as a special service to Gandalf, whom he knew personally (Gandalf had previously saved his life). In addition to this, there are allusions that while Sauron was still in power, the Eagles would have struggled getting to Mount Doom, not least because of the wraiths on their fell-beasts and other dark creatures and powers that Sauron had at his disposal. Sending Frodo on the back of an eagle into Mount Doom would have been effectively air-mailing the ring to Sauron. A ground-based approach was decided to be much more effective and appropriate. Finally, the ring corrupts the proud much more easily than the humble. While there is no proof that the ring has the same effect on an Eagle as it does for men, there may have been too much risk in tempting the extremely proud Eagles."
you could have summed up that entire paragraph with two words: shitty narrative.
 

Khalan

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Just got back from seeing this HFR 3D. Was terribly obvious at the start in the shire but I forgot about it by then end.

Liked the movie, a good start to the 3. Things I didn't like :
1. Sting Acting like a Neon light. It was so fucking bright and when the goblin died it flickered? Lol
2. Goblin King, was dumb and unneeded.
3. Stone Giants, unneeded.
4. Radaghast, cool to see him but way too big a part, they should have cut down his part in 1/2.
5. All the Goblin/Trolll/Orc Voices. Some of them were Lolworthy
6. The white council, Gandalf seemed like such a bitch to Saruman. Man up wizard!
 

The Ancient_sl

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The power problem is being exaggerated, in the books, it's not really clear what it means to be a wizard, you never really see Gandalf doing more than tricks with light, smoke or sound.
 

The Ancient_sl

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The power problem is being exaggerated, in the books, it's not really clear what it means to be a wizard, you never really see Gandalf doing more than tricks with light, smoke or sound.
 

McCheese

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The power problem is being exaggerated, in the books, it's not really clear what it means to be a wizard, you never really see Gandalf doing more than tricks with light, smoke or sound.
You might be right about Gandalf, but there are some pretty powerful characters and their immense power is explicitly stated or shown. Galadriel and Glorfindel, for example. I think someone in this thread mentioned before how Galadriel basically single-handedly destroys Dol Guldur towards the end of the events in the Lord of the Rings. You'd think she'd have been able to do more to help than give a bunch of shitty random gifts to people.
 

The Ancient_sl

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You might be right about Gandalf, but there are some pretty powerful characters and their immense power is explicitly stated or shown. Galadriel and Glorfindel, for example. I think someone in this thread mentioned before how Galadriel basically single-handedly destroys Dol Guldur towards the end of the events in the Lord of the Rings. You'd think she'd have been able to do more to help than give a bunch of shitty random gifts to people.
Even so, that doesn't present an inconsistency. Galadriel could not very actively assist in the ring quest because of the threat of temptation it created for her. She outright states how crazy powerful she'll be if she got hold of the ring.
 

McCheese

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Even so, that doesn't present an inconsistency. Galadriel could not very actively assist in the ring quest because of the threat of temptation it created for her. She outright states how crazy powerful she'll be if she got hold of the ring.
I understand why she couldn'ttakethe ring anywhere. The same reason Gandalf refuses to touch it. However, with all that power at her disposal, why couldn't she stroll down to the gates of Mordor as a distraction rather than let Aragon lead a suicide mission? It always struck me that she (and others like her) could have been so useful in a number of ways and yet all they did was sit on their asses.
 

Lithose

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Gandalf showed his power quite a few times.

He got into a magical fight with the Balrog before the bridge--when he tried to lock a stone door on him. The magic was so powerful that there was a bright flash of light and it caused the whole stone structure to cave in. (And these were stone pillars that was described to death as being massive/thick/unbreakable--and Gandalf's magic, colliding with the Balrog's counter spell, broke them like twigs.)

He disarmed Aragorn, Gimli and Leagolas all at once with a wave of his hand. These are three warriors that throughout the book were able to chase off or show down many times their number.

And then he said this to themNo blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends,none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.

He lit a tree on fire and controlled the flames in order to chase off a pack of wolves.

And not to mention he actually threw down with the Balrog and killed him. Remember, that this was a demon so powerful, that the Orcs which defeated an entire Dwarven expedition/army, backed away and were frightened of it.

And then this quoteDangerous? And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

The fact was, power in general was far less pronounced in the books. In Moria, for example, the whole Orc fight in the tomb lasted like 2 seconds--Aragon cuts one orcs head off, and then the rest of the orcs run. Or the fight between Sauramon and Gandalf, which was actually just like a stare down and not some Wizard duel. But in general, Gandalf is pretty pimp in the bookswhen he wants to be--it's just never when anything important to the plot happens. He only busts out his god powers when he Tolkien wants do something that looks cool, but won't actually affect the little guy finishing the story.

There's also the fact that Tolkien does blur the line of what "power" means pretty well. A lot of times power doesn't mean physical strength, but it can also mean political, military and even the ability to manipulate people. Like Sauron, after he reformed, was physically fairly weak--even the diminished Elves+White council could chase him off, but he was still considered the strongest force in Middle Earth--and that's because Tolkien usually talks about power in a giant amalgamation and not actually in terms of who can kick whose ass in a fight.
 

The Ancient_sl

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I understand why she couldn'ttakethe ring anywhere. The same reason Gandalf refuses to touch it. However, with all that power at her disposal, why couldn't she stroll down to the gates of Mordor as a distraction rather than let Aragon lead a suicide mission? It always struck me that she (and others like her) could have been so useful in a number of ways and yet all they did was sit on their asses.
Well I think she was doing other important shit. She couldn't go with the ring anywhere for fear of drawing attention, she had her own realm to take care of, etc. Galadriel and her ilk are also only half-invested in the world of men anyway; then can(and eventually do) leave Middle-Earth if they care to. Any aid they are offering is done out of a sense of justice, righteousness, or pity, not self-preservation.

I guess it's some new hipster thing to hate on Tolkien lore, but I think you end up looking pretty foolish nitpicking texts that are the foundation for pretty much every piece of modern high-fantasy you read.
 

Lithose

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Well I think she was doing other important shit. She couldn't go with the ring anywhere for fear of drawing attention, she had her own realm to take care of, etc. Galadriel and her ilk are also only half-invested in the world of men anyway; then can(and eventually do) leave Middle-Earth if they care to. Any aid they are offering is done out of a sense of justice,righteousness, or pity, not self-preservation.
Well, she actually did need to hide. Her ring was still corruptible by the one ring. The only reason it didn't happen before was because the Elves only used it's power sparingly and even in the third age they only used it to preserve their immortality, and slow down the "diminishment". So she actually had a reason to hide, because if the Elven rings were to fall back into his hands, he could use their magic to do a ton of shit, supposedly.

I guess it's some new hipster thing to hate on Tolkien lore, but I think you end up looking pretty foolish nitpicking texts that are the foundation for pretty much every piece of modern high-fantasy you read.
I think it's just the fact that movies emphasize certain scenes that in the book were minor/insignificant elements. Chasing a few orcs off by looking scary in Moria, for example, makes Gandalf not busting out a fireball on them seem plausible. But when everyone is running around fighting for their life, Gandalf not using his power becomes more, and more odd. In the book, this kind of contradiction in character motivation is really very subdued. Especially given that, like I said before, Tolkien goes to great lengths to point out that not all power is just physical. As strong as Gandalf is, he's not going to walk up to an army and win...And Tolkien does convey that pretty well.

In the movies though, with their emphasis on action scenes, there is a problem with the suspension of disbelief that's not really there in the books. But that's what you get when you focus on fights/action as a product of character power. In the books, a lot of the "enemy's" power was him corrupting people, not direct power. Hell, the whole plot of the rings in the book was political/mental control andnotphysical power. In fact, Sauron got weaker from pouring himself into the ring--but in the movies, the ring was actually shown to be symbolic of Sauron swiping hundreds of people at a time and killing them. I mean, really, in the end the whole story was about how Hobbits were stout and strong enough to topple a Dark Lord--so the whole point of strength not being all based in "the sword" was about as subtle as a sledge hammer. The only thing he failed to do was say the pen what mightier than the sword.

I think, overall, a lot of this stems from just the translation to screen being a little crude in how to display power in a way that's visually stimulating and doesn't have the help of narration/inner monologues to help explain it.

Edit: And I know Tolkien denied it, but the symbolism for WW2 is pretty thick. I think in a lot of ways, the fact that such a diminished "little" man, who wasn't particularly bright, like Hitler, could wield so much power just through his ability to orate, was a big part of the story. Showing how power can be extremely subjective based on context was something he tried to do a lot.
 

The Ancient_sl

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Yeah, I'm not arguing that Jackson's portrayals don't add some "huh?" moments, but some people in this thread were suggesting directly that it was a Tolkien problem, and I'm disagreeing with that overall sense.

Tolkien's problems were adding people like that faggot Bombadil.
 

McCheese

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I guess it's some new hipster thing to hate on Tolkien lore, but I think you end up looking pretty foolish nitpicking texts that are the foundation for pretty much every piece of modern high-fantasy you read.
I don't think it's a matter of nitpicking, but just questions that a lot of people have after reading the 4 big books (The Hobbit and LOTR trilogy). I'm sure a lot of stuff might be explained in other sources and the Silmarillion, but most people don't go that far into the lore of Middle Earth.

For example, I remember when I first read The Fellowship of the Ring, I was really impressed by how Glorfindel reveals his full might and frightens off some of the Nazgul. Tolkien made it a point to explain that even a thousand Glorfindels weren't powerful enough to directly assault Mordor, but I found myself thinking, "Well jeez guys, at least take him with you for part of the journey, if only as a sort of body guard." It's been a while since I read the books but things like that kept appearing, where it seemed like the common sense thing wasn't being done for the sake of providing an interesting adventure story (which I think Tolkien did very well, and I love Middle Earth with a passion. See the LOTRO thread in the MMO forum).