The Hobbit

iannis

iannis

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Bane_sl said:
It's been years but I seem to recall them as if they could only be summoned in the most direst of situations. Sort of like how Gandalf can't use his wizarding powers unless its truly called for.
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Yeah, I think it's basically for the same reason that Gandalf doesn't call upon the powers of an angry God and smite the shit out of evil. For one, it would be a boring story for another the Valar don't work that way. They picked up and went across the sea because they thought shit like that was pretty dumb.

I'm fairly sure that the Eagles (or at least the eagle king) is the same sort of thing that Saruman / Gandalf / Radaghast were. Basically Angels... but the white council was sent back to middle earth as a sort of counter to Sauron where the Eagles were there since the birth of the elves and never left in the first place.
 
Tuco

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Iannis_sl said:
Yeah, I think it's basically for the same reason that Gandalf doesn't call upon the powers of an angry God and smite the shit out of evil. For one, it would be a boring story for another the Valar don't work that way. They picked up and went across the sea because they thought shit like that was pretty dumb.

I'm fairly sure that the Eagles (or at least the eagle king) is the same sort of thing that Saruman / Gandalf / Radaghast were. Basically Angels... but the white council was sent back to middle earth as a sort of counter to Sauron where the Eagles were there since the birth of the elves and never left in the first place.
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Let's not go nuts here. The eagles are a dumb plot device that look cool. Gandalf et all are cool supernatural beings that would trivialize the story of the hobbits being relevant unless they have some bullshit 'oh gandalf is plvling hobbits' barrier.
 
rad

rad

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Bane_sl said:
I want to see this in HFR.

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The scene alone is enough for me to see it in HFR again.
 
E

etchazz

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Tuco_sl said:
Let's not go nuts here. The eagles are a dumb plot device that look cool. Gandalf et all are cool supernatural beings that would trivialize the story of the hobbits being relevant unless they have some bullshit 'oh gandalf is plvling hobbits' barrier.
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yeah, the best way to look at it is tolkien painted himself into several corners while writing the hobbit and just came up with several deus ex machina moments to get the dwarves and bilbo out of their jams. didn't realize it when i first read the book as a kid, but now, looking back, it's obvious. a writer's ace in the hole.
 
Famm

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etchazz_sl said:
deus ex machina
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Same thing I said after seeing last night. It has been a LONG time since I've read The Hobbit. I'd read the trilogy much more recently when the last movies came out. I'd forgotten how the eagle scene really went until I came looking, but I was hardly surprised that everyone's keying in on it.

I totally avoided all spoiler potential for this online. I had no idea it was going to be a trilogy. With the length of the book I assumed it was one shot. Of course as it went on it became apparent they wouldn't get through it all and that ending left it wide open. I'm reasonably happy with it. Same general complaints. Handling of the eagles. brown wizard, rock giants was overdone. I'll go see the next installments for sure though. Gollum stole the show again. I liked the way the dwarves were handled.

The way it started out with Bilbo and Frodo had me worried. I thought the entire movie would be told like that, jumping back to Bilbo writing his book. Glad I was wrong, that would have been rage worthy. I thought it could have skipped that intro and started out right from the first line of the book. I would have liked that approach much better but it didn't ruin the movie.
 
T

The Ancient_sl

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I enjoyed it, my complaint is chiefly that Jackson doesn't seem to know when to edit or make cuts. Radaghast's addition was iffy, but Thorin's backstory was fantastic, so my real problem is shit like the rock giants scene. You just added a shit ton of action to the troll scene, did you really need to do the same to a blurb about rock giants? Riddles in the Dark was good, the Goblin King was out of place, but I appreciated the nod to Rankin and Bass, so I can let that slide. It's just the stuff that seems to extend the movie out needlessly really sort of bothers me. I could have been much tighter and at the most 2 films, it only isn't because the director is just trying to do TOO MUCH.
 
C

Cheap Cigar_sl

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I haven't gone to see it yet but have read everyone's thoughts and impressions but I still haven't found out where the Wilhelm Scream is. It has to be in this movie at some point. I loved the book when I read it as a kid so does this mean I will not be pleased with the movie? Should I reread the book before I go see it or after?
 
Tuco

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The wilhelm scream is during the goblin escape around when they're playing three stooges with the ladder.
 
T

Tral_sl

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Iannis_sl said:
Yeah, I think it's basically for the same reason that Gandalf doesn't call upon the powers of an angry God and smite the shit out of evil. For one, it would be a boring story for another the Valar don't work that way. They picked up and went across the sea because they thought shit like that was pretty dumb.

I'm fairly sure that the Eagles (or at least the eagle king) is the same sort of thing that Saruman / Gandalf / Radaghast were. Basically Angels... but the white council was sent back to middle earth as a sort of counter to Sauron where the Eagles were there since the birth of the elves and never left in the first place.
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Apparently Tolkien himself couldn't really decide.

For some time Tolkien considered the Eagles as bird-shaped Maiar;[7] however, later he realised that the statement about Gwaihir and Landroval's descent from Thorondor had already appeared in print in The Lord of the Rings,[21] while the notion of the "Children" of the Valar and Maiar had been rejected by him long before.[42] In the last of his notes on this topic, dated by his son to late 1950s, Tolkien decided that the Great Eagles were common animals that had been "taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no f?ar."

Nevertheless, a different conception may be present in a yet later essay on the origin of the Ents which, according to Christopher Tolkien, is likely to derive from 1963 and was included into the published Silmarillion.[43] Contemporary J. R. R. Tolkien's notes define the Ents as "either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took to the likeness of trees";[44] the essay agrees in this, adding that the Ents appeared shortly after the Awakening of the Elves, when "the thought of Yavanna ... [summoned] spirits from afar". Apparently the same origin for the Great Eagles is implied by the speech of Manw? within the essay: "... before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West. ... In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon [the Valar]."[45]
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from wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_(Middle-earth)
 
Lithose

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Tuco_sl said:
Let's not go nuts here. The eagles are a dumb plot device that look cool. Gandalf et all are cool supernatural beings that would trivialize the story of the hobbits being relevant unless they have some bullshit 'oh gandalf is plvling hobbits' barrier.
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See, the thing with Tolkien is he was a devout Catholic and whenever I read him, it seems like he's trying to explain the logical holes in faith. In his world constantly tries to answer the question of why beings with extreme power, would do nothing. It often leads him into a quagmire of philosophical nonsense. However, his most often used reason, is that the use of power corrupts--I know, cliche. But that's the reason why Gandalf doesn't throw down with his god powers whenever he wants, because he was forbidden except in cases where he is opposed by such powers. Because the use of them in any situation where they don't match his opponent, would eventually breed corruption. (IE bullshit!)

It's a pretty consistent theme in the book, but yes, it's a massive, obtuse plot device that really shows how much the man struggled with explaining his faith--because even in his own world he couldn't make it feel consistent. At least, that's my opinion when I read about his odd character choices. (From the books, I have no idea if he's dealt with this in interviews ect.)
 
kegkilla

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so when he teleported into the cave and did some sonic boom type shit when he was up against some mentally retarded orcs who can't figure out how to get their heads out of a ladder, that is considered justified use of power?
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Grand Inquisitor Kegkilla_sl said:
so when he teleported into the cave and did some sonic boom type shit when he was up against some mentally retarded orcs who can't figure out how to get their heads out of a ladder, that is considered justified use of power?
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I have no idea, I haven't seen the movie yet. I don't remember a sonic boom in the book. But in general, Tolkien rarely remained consistent. Gandalf was a walking Dues Ex device that could grow our shrink in power depending on what was needed. The explanations all come later when Tolkien tries to explain why in one scene Gandalf hides in trees from orcs, while later he is shown pimp slapping a shadow-fire demon.
 
Sterling

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Grand Inquisitor Kegkilla_sl said:
so when he teleported into the cave and did some sonic boom type shit when he was up against some mentally retarded orcs who can't figure out how to get their heads out of a ladder, that is considered justified use of power?
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He's never really been consistent with his writing. He's good at world building and the overall lore on a macro scale is fairly interesting, but specifics have never been his strong point.
 
Tuco

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Lithose_sl said:
I have no idea, I haven't seen the movie yet.
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In the movie at least, the goblins (not orcs) catch the dwarves and are about to eat them or whatever when Gandalf shows up and casts Arcane Explosion which AE stuns and disarms all the goblins. It's a thoroughly unjustified use of force because it'd be like cruising a level 60 wizard through solusek A to get a ring of the goblin lords for your halfling twink
 
Noodleface

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Lithose_sl said:
I have no idea, I haven't seen the movie yet. I don't remember a sonic boom in the book. But in general, Tolkien rarely remained consistent. Gandalf was a walking Dues Ex device that could grow our shrink in power depending on what was needed. The explanations all come later when Tolkien tries to explain why in one scene Gandalf hides in trees from orcs, while later he is shown pimp slapping a shadow-fire demon.
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Must've run out of mana pots.
 
T

The Ancient_sl

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Tuco_sl said:
In the movie at least, the goblins (not orcs) catch the dwarves and are about to eat them or whatever when Gandalf shows up and casts Arcane Explosion which AE stuns and disarms all the goblins. It's a thoroughly unjustified use of force because it'd be like cruising a level 60 wizard through solusek A to get a ring of the goblin lords for your halfling twink
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Goblins and Orcs are the same thing according to Tolkien.
 
Royal

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All this wondering why Gandalf didn't roam around with the perma pimp hand and no one asking why Galadriel didn't do the same thing. She destroyed Dol Guldur by singing at it at the end of the War of the Ring. Talk about something that would have been handy earlier on.
 
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