War with Syria

AladainAF

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its too bad that america has to bomb syria now for no reason because if we dont we end up looking like pussies. thanks barry.
It really is truly amazing that as articulate as Obama is in campaigning, he's flapped his lips far far too much while president and created a whole host of issues that never needed to be created just because he doesn't keep his fucking mouth shut.

When we're at WWIII... fuck'n Obama.
 

iannis

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US involvement in this situation makes zero sense to me. I've been looking for a realist explanation for it, but I still have no clue what it is.
The only one there is is that we don't want to be facing the situation that we face with Korea in Iran in 5-10 years. Also, oil and jews. That's what it has to be because nothing that they've said makes any fucking sense so you have to look at what they're not willing to say.

For being the peace prize diplomacy president Obama is doing his best to risk the biggest war since Kennedy, and he's hell bent on doing it in the middle of a prolonged financial crisis. When the UK, those guys who are willing to follow us into whichever shithole we feel like stomping on for whatever convenient lie we choose to use as a justification, when THOSE guys tell you your plan is stupid it might behoove a nation to listen.

Those guys know about stupid wars.
 

Sebudai

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The only one there is is that we don't want to be facing the situation that we face with Korea in Iran in 5-10 years. Also, oil and jews. That's what it has to be because nothing that they've said makes any fucking sense so you have to look at what they're not willing to say.
I agree the actual reason(s) aren't being talked about, but I don't think any of the ones you've listed make much sense either. How would the Assad regime falling help the situation in regards to Korea, Iran, oil, or Israel?
 

tad10

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It has only a little to do with Qatari gas and a lot to do with deficit/sequestration negotiations. Expect another couple of trillion dollars added to the deficit. But who's counting these days right?
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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I'm not buying the Qatari gas line argument either, it doesnt pass the basic logic test. Why would you want to run a pipe through Jordan AND Syria instead of just running it through Iraq into Turkey? You'd have to give a cut to Jordan, give a cut to Syria and on top of that, Syria is hostile. Why not just run it through Iraq which just spent a decade under the American thumb and is likely to be much more friendlier to American (and Qatari) interests?
 

Aaron

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One of the reasons taking out Syria is important for some people *cough*Israel*cough* is that in doing so they remove one of Iran's biggest allies, and also the ally most capable of doing some serious shit to Israel in retaliation to any possible future Israeli airstrike on Iran. But oil and natural gas also play a big part in this, as well as international finance and a whole host of other things.

As for why the West are pushing for war in the midst of a financial crises, well, it's the age old method for distracting people from the problems at home. Create a common enemy that the people can rally around and they'll put up with shit they otherwise wouldn't. It's been going on at least since the Roman times. Some notable examples include the Falklands (to cover up from Thatcher's failed economic policies), Vietnam (that is, the prolonged war, to cover up from Johnson's policies), WWII (many indications were that Germany was all but bankrupt, as for the US, it got things moving again), WWI (England was all but bankrupt), French involvement in the US war of Independence (France was all but bankrupt).
 

Agraza

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WW2 was the final nail in the coffin for the depression. It was a gigantic keynesian stimulus package that set up the success of the 50s and 60s. But I doubt this has a substantial impact unless it really does expand. I don't see it involving any other developed nations.
 

Sebudai

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Maybe I've missed it during these first two weeks of the new semester, but I've never seen it established how/why the Syrian opposition forces are supposedly more ideal than the Assad regime for any of those things. They seem just as bad if not worse.
 

Agraza

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Them being just as bad is a newish development. The rebellion started as simple civil unrest from the normal folks of Syria, but it has drawn the attention of Sunni fundamentalists since Syria is ruled by an alawite that tolerates both islamic and christian minorities and receives support from both an imperialist power, Russia, and THE shiite state, Iran. And the worst behavior on the part of the rebel movements is regularly attributed to these outsider influences. Jabhat al-Nusra is essentially an arm of Al Qaeda, and their contribution to the revolt has been growing rapidly. They're almost the primary military force in the rebellion now. The kurds would probably have that role, but they aren't really on board with the coalition of rebel forces. Being a minority group in the country, Bashar has been able to dull the kurdish edge by appealing to their desire for more autonomy. So while there are militant kurdish forces in the country, they often clash with the rebel coalition over supplies rather than working with them.

The Al-Nusra Front has stolen a lot of the ideological momentum of the rebellion away from the other groups as they continue to be an effective force, and this has caused the western world to try and differentiate between rebel A and rebel B since Al Qaeda and related entities are only funding some of them.
 

fanaskin

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Why do you think that?
I've read a couple things that say the "cost of empire" is usually greater than the benefit, historically individuals within the empire become richer but overall it costs more to maintain empires in the long run than is gained through exploitation of colonies.
 

fanaskin

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The Syrian Pipelineistan angle

This graphic Iranian success in South Asia contrasts with its predicament in Southwest Asia.

The South Pars gas fields - the largest in the world - are shared by Iran and Qatar. Tehran and Doha have developed an extremely tricky relationship, mixing cooperation and hardcore competition.

The key (unstated) reason for Qatar to be so obsessed by regime change in Syria is to kill the $10 billion Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline, which was agreed upon in July 2011. The same applies to Turkey, because this pipeline would bypass Ankara, which always bills itself as the key energy crossroads between East and West.
It's crucial to remember that the Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline is as anathema to Washington as IP. The difference is that Washington in this case can count on its allies Qatar and Turkey to sabotage the whole deal.

This means sabotaging not only Iran but also the 'Four Seas' strategy announced by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in 2009, according to which Damascus should become a Pipelineistan hub connected to the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, the Persian Gulf and the Eastern Mediterranean.

The strategy spells out a Syria intimately connected with Iranian - and not Qatari - energy flows. Iran-Iraq-Syria is known in the region as the 'friendship pipeline.' Typically, Western corporate media derides it as an 'Islamic' pipeline. (So Saudi pipelines are what, Catholic?) What makes it even more ridiculous is that gas in this pipeline would flow to Syria and then Lebanon - and from there to energy-starved European markets close by.

The Pipelineistan games get even more complicated when we add the messy Iraqi Kurdistan/Turkey energy love affair - detailed here by Erimtan Can - and the recent gas discoveries in the Eastern Mediterranean involving territorial waters of Israel, Palestine, Cyprus, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria; some, or perhaps all of these actors could turn from energy importers to energy exporters.

Israel will have a clear option to send its gas via a pipeline to Turkey, and then export it to Europe; that goes a long way to explain the recent phone call schmoozing between Turkey's Prime Minister Erdogan and Israel's Netanyahu, brokered by Obama.

Terrestrial and maritime borders between Israel and Lebanon remain dependent on a hazy UN Blue Line, set up way back in 2000. Damascus - as well as Tehran - supports Beirut, once again against Washington's will. And Damascus also supports Baghdad's strategy of diversifying its means of distribution, once again trying to escape the Strait of Hormuz. Thus, the importance of the Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline.

No wonder Syria is a red line for Tehran. Now the whole of Pipelineistan will be watching how far Qatar is willing to go following Washington's obsession.
So toppling syria could lead to ending the proposed Iranian/Iraq/syrian pipeline that would undermine Qatar/Israel/Saudi arabia, and a pipeline going through syria would allow israel to tap into that pipleine to export their massive offshore LNG find which it would not be able to do with a pipeline through Iraq
 

fanaskin

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Syria intervention plan fueled by oil interests, not chemical weapon concern
Massacres of civilians are being exploited for narrow geopolitical competition to control Mideast oil, gas pipelines


Exploring different scenarios for this trajectory, the report speculated that the US may concentrate "on shoring up the traditional Sunni regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan as a way of containing Iranian power and influence in the Middle East and Persian Gulf." Noting that this could actually empower al-Qaeda jihadists, the report concluded that doing so might work in western interests by bogging down jihadi activity with internal sectarian rivalry rather than targeting the US:

"One of the oddities of this long war trajectory is that it may actually reduce the al-Qaeda threat to US interests in the short term. The upsurge in Shia identity and confidence seen here would certainly cause serious concern in the Salafi-jihadist community in the Muslim world, including the senior leadership of al-Qaeda. As a result, it is very likely that al-Qaeda might focus its efforts on targeting Iranian interests throughout the Middle East and Persian Gulf while simultaneously cutting back on anti-American and anti-Western operations."

The RAND document contextualised this disturbing strategy with surprisingly prescient recognition of the increasing vulnerability of the US's key allies and enemies - Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Egypt, Syria, Iran - to a range of converging crises: rapidly rising populations, a 'youth bulge', internal economic inequalities, political frustrations, sectarian tensions, and environmentally-linked water shortages, all of which could destabilise these countries from within or exacerbate inter-state conflicts.

The report noted especially that Syria is among several "downstream countries that are becoming increasingly water scarce as their populations grow", increasing a risk of conflict. Thus, although the RAND document fell far short of recognising the prospect of an 'Arab Spring', it illustrates that three years before the 2011 uprisings, US defence officials were alive to the region's growing instabilities, and concerned by the potential consequences for stability of Gulf oil.

These strategic concerns, motivated by fear of expanding Iranian influence, impacted Syria primarily in relation to pipeline geopolitics. In 2009 - the same year former French foreign minister Dumas alleges the British began planning operations in Syria- Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar that would run a pipeline from the latter's North field, contiguous with Iran's South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets - albeit crucially bypassing Russia. Assad's rationale was "to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas."

Instead, the following year, Assad pursued negotiations for an alternative $10 billion pipeline plan with Iran, across Iraq to Syria, that would also potentially allow Iran to supply gas to Europe from its South Pars field shared with Qatar. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the project was signed in July 2012 - just as Syria's civil war was spreading to Damascus and Aleppo - and earlier this year Iraq signed a framework agreement for construction of the gas pipelines.

The Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline plan was a "direct slap in the face" to Qatar's plans. No wonder Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan, in a failed attempt to bribe Russia to switch sides, told President Vladmir Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in Saudi Arabia's hands and will "not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports", according to diplomatic sources. When Putin refused, the Prince vowed military action.
 

fanaskin

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French MPs debate Syria military action
France's parliament is holding an emergency debate Wednesday over the possibility of taking military action in Syria. However, whether or not France carries out strikes will likely depend on the result of a vote in the US Congress.
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However, the surprise decision by Barack Obama to seek approval from Congress before authorising military strikes against Assad has cast doubt on France's own course of action.

On Tuesday, Hollande ruled out any chance of France taking unilateral military action against Syria.

If the US Congress votes against strikes, France will instead "take up its responsibilities" by providing support to the Syrian opposition in other ways, the French president said, without specifying exactly what this would entail.
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Vallaud-Belkacem told BFM-TV that military action could "re-balance'' the situation on the ground in Syria.

France has in the past been reluctant to carry out military action without first getting approval from the UN, and this is something that could prove a major sticking point during Wednesday's debate.

So far, attempts to secure UN Security Council backing for military strikes against Syria have been blocked by China and Russia, the latter a particularly vocal supporter of the Assad regime.

In an interview with state-run Channel One television on Wednesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin warned the West that military action against the Syrian regime without UN support would be considered an "aggression".

Nevertheless, he added he did "not exclude" the possibility of Russia backing strikes if it could be conclusively proved that the Syrian regime had carried out chemical attacks.
 

fanaskin

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Dempsey Can't Say What U.S. is Seeking in Syria
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey couldn't answer what exactly the U.S. was seeking in Syria Tuesday during questioning from Sen. Bob Corker (R., Tenn.) about a resolution authorizing military action there:

DEMPSEY: The answer to whether I support additional support for the moderate opposition is yes.

CORKER: And this authorization will support those activities in addition to responding to the weapons of mass destruction.

DEMPSEY: I don't know how the resolution will evolve, but I support -

CORKER: What you're seeking. What is it you're seeking?

DEMPSEY: I can't answer that, what we're seeking.
 

Arbitrary

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A pipeline for Europe, a weakened enemy for Israel, and a more vulnerable Iran for the United States.

I don't understand how you all cannot see the value in this. This is a slam dunk decision. You just need to filter everything through the lens of imperialism.
 

AladainAF

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So basically, we're going to war with Syria because of oil. How Republicany of Obama.

Also, Obama now says "I never set a red line". lol. Time to scrub youtube! lol