What do you do?

Deathwing

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I agree with your points. I sometimes wish there were more professional unions. And I say that perhaps naively because I've never worked a job that had one. But, I would like there to be a better way for a worker to leverage what they are due(whatever that is) besides the threat of leaving.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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I agree with your points. I sometimes wish there were more professional unions. And I say that perhaps naively because I've never worked a job that had one. But, I would like there to be a better way for a worker to leverage what they are due(whatever that is) besides the threat of leaving.
You should never threaten anyone when trying to get a raise. You simply lay out why you think you deserve it and if they don't agree then you find a new job, but you never mention that fact to your employer. The people who aren't afraid to actually move on are the ones who get what they deserve. Far too many people are afraid of moving to another company and it holds them back immensely.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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You should never threaten anyone when trying to get a raise. You simply lay out why you think you deserve it and if they don't agree then you find a new job, but you never mention that fact to your employer. The people who aren't afraid to actually move on are the ones who get what they deserve. Far too many people are afraid of moving to another company and it holds them back immensely.
^ truth
 

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick
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I agree that on principal alone, 4% is above average. However, if we take into account that I haven't moved up at all in my time here then I'm actually get far below average.

Also while I'm not threatening to leave (who would even do that?), if/when I do get a competitive offer I'm going to bring it to my boss for sure as a leveraging piece. Ideally no one really wants to leave a comfortable job, which this is, but I need to go where the money is early on in my career. I'm trying to increase my salary as many have outlined by doing the 2-3 year jump if necessary. If my present company kept up with that, I would never leave, but I feel like this is the only way right now.

Also, the company I interviewed for is the same job but offers more individual innovation whereas here it's "Implement this feature." The new job will be a bit research + implement oriented.
 

Deathwing

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Of course, the threat is implied, not direct. I agree with your other point though. Traffic disproportionately pisses me off, so I've generally stayed away from large cities. I just can't stomach wasting 1-2 hours a day in your car. But it also means "then you find a new job" has a higher opportunity cost.

But, maybe not anymore. It used to be harder in my old industry(testing hardware) where you are tied to a production floor and huge machines. Physically being there was important. Now that I'm in software, remote work might be more of a possibility and I might try looking when I get a couple more years experience. My current employer has exhausted the local area and we're having to hire remote.
 

Cad

scientia potentia est
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I agree that on principal alone, 4% is above average. However, if we take into account that I haven't moved up at all in my time here then I'm actually get far below average.

Also while I'm not threatening to leave (who would even do that?), if/when I do get a competitive offer I'm going to bring it to my boss for sure as a leveraging piece. Ideally no one really wants to leave a comfortable job, which this is, but I need to go where the money is early on in my career. I'm trying to increase my salary as many have outlined by doing the 2-3 year jump if necessary. If my present company kept up with that, I would never leave, but I feel like this is the only way right now.

Also, the company I interviewed for is the same job but offers more individual innovation whereas here it's "Implement this feature." The new job will be a bit research + implement oriented.
I wouldn't recommend ever going to your employer with another offer and letting them counter it. Your days will be numbered there once they find a replacement for you, since you're clearly disloyal. You never never accept a counter offer.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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I wouldn't recommend ever going to your employer with another offer and letting them counter it. Your days will be numbered there once they find a replacement for you, since you're clearly disloyal. You never never accept a counter offer.
Counter offers should be treated as temporary holdover for a variety of reasons. The issue listed above is definitely something that can happen, but accepting a counter offer from a company you clearly aren't all that happy at (or else you wouldn't have interviewed elsewhere) is only a bandaid, you'll be unhappy again in a matter of months.

I accepted a counter offer once at my last job. It kept me happy for about 3 months and then I started entertaining recruiters and interviews again and left less than a year after the original counter. I didn't even give them the opportunity to counter the second time.
 

Heylel

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Man they're doing a good job of icing the kicker. The formal offer should come through to me today by end of business, and it's currently 4:20 in Colorado where the recruiter is located. Last we spoke, she told me it'd be here this morning.

I'm sure it's nothing to worry over, but I can't help but get a little nervous. We also agreed on Monday as a reply by date, which is going to be difficult if they can't get me anything in writing.

edit: Yes yes, 4:20 in Denver. Ha ha.
 

McCheese

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I got an offer letter at around 6pm one time, with a request for the signed reply by 10:00am the next morning.
 

Heylel

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I got an offer letter at around 6pm one time, with a request for the signed reply by 10:00am the next morning.
Well, we talked about Monday on the phone. I just got an email back from the recruiter saying she had to leave unexpectedly today and I should have it Monday morning. It somewhat raises my bullshit alarm, but they've chased me so aggressively over the last week that it would be strange to delay now. I know for certain that no one else is vying for the job.

She did specify a start date, so that's progress. I still want to see the formal offer though.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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I never understood the 1,2 whatever shit. If you're getting raises and bonuses and advancement, then who cares what your title is? If you're not getting those things, again... who cares what your title is? Do you care if you're Software dev 3 if they still have you doing monkeyboy shit and pay you $50k?

Or are you thinking all of the advancement/raises etc come with the title?
To be honest, the whole structure and title thing just preempts drama with pay rates, experience and streamlines performance reviews and the like. It takes some burden from management and HR staff and puts it on the 'system'. Helps keep payroll and cost centers in check, etc.

It's sooooo much easier to tell someone "she get's $3/hour more because she's Associate III and you're an Associate I" etc. when the bullshit train comes to town. It's also much easier to hold people accountable for raises - IE, I expect you to perform at X level for a level IV person, else we demote you to level III again and take your money back.

Obviously not appropriate for all types of employment.
 

Palum

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It's a little of everything.

If I'm throwing my resume out there, being a software engineer 1 vs. 2 shows a clear advancement path. Being stuck at 1 for a few years probably makes someone go "why hasn't he been promoted?"

On the money aspect, there's a fairly decent bump here in pay. I've received my annual shitty raise (4%) and that's it. Obviously I've grown as a developer, in both skill and responsibilities, yet my pay and my title don't reflect that. Maybe if I were further in my career and settled in it wouldn't matter as much, but to someone trying to advance their career efficiently it bothers me.

And as to why I haven't been promoted, I got literally and figuratively fucked here. I originally started in System Engineering as a Software Engineer 1. I worked there for a year, was poised for advancement, and my position literally was shitcanned. Thankfully BIOS picked me up, where I've been for another year now. So I got a shitty roll of the dice there. I guess some of my resentment stems from that.

Sorry for the longwinded explanation. I'm not a title whore, but I would like my skill level to be reflected in some way.
Have you asked them why you have yet to be promoted? I have a friend who I once found out had gone without a raise for 3 years because he was 'being polite' and they just didn't do reviews until you asked for one (or a raise) to avoid paying you more. lol.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
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Well, we talked about Monday on the phone. I just got an email back from the recruiter saying she had to leave unexpectedly today and I should have it Monday morning. It somewhat raises my bullshit alarm, but they've chased me so aggressively over the last week that it would be strange to delay now. I know for certain that no one else is vying for the job.

She did specify a start date, so that's progress. I still want to see the formal offer though.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. My current job got into that Friday rut with the job offer and a screwup which made a long weekend for me but on Monday it was all cleared up.
 

Lost Virtue

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Got the promotion, will become official next week! Basically doubling my salary and receiving a substantial upfront bonus. I am already looking for new toys to buy with the bonus... I have no desire for any new cars, so I may outfit our living room with a new TV and some completely overkill speakers to replace our Klipsch system along with some new speakers outside and in the office. We are always listening to music or watching movies, so both will get a lot of use. Also contemplating on getting a nice camper trailer since we love camping (if you can really call it that with an RV). We are also trying to pre-plan the paid vacation I will be receiving.
Decisions, decisions... What new toys to buy...?
 

Lost Virtue

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Yay consumerism. Fuck saving for the future.
Our retirement savings goal is way ahead of schedule (we are both looking at retiring around 45). We typically only use our bonuses for fun things... Our salaries go towards savings, our investments, and to basic necessities (mortgage, food, gas, my cigar budget, bourbon budget, beer budget, her wine budget, child necessities). We are actually pretty frugal with our money (if you don't include our spending for our 'vices' such as bourbon and wine), but we do like the nicer things in life when we do spend however. We make great combined income but we went for a smaller home (smaller compared to what our income level usually supports) as a large one wasn't needed. We'd rather have land than a large home in a neighborhood with small yards.

I'll put it this way... Our mortgage is only $1900 a month. If you go back a few pages and see what I stated my old salary was (which I also notated was less than the wife's; but this promotion has doubled my old one), you'll get a better perspective that we are indeed saving for the future.
 

Gilgamel

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Considering the value of an MBA. My place of work will pay $2500 bucks a quarter towards one. Any thought?
 

Lost Virtue

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Considering the value of an MBA. My place of work will pay $2500 bucks a quarter towards one. Any thought?
I'd say go for it. As it has been brought up in this thread before, a standard 4-year degree's value is almost non-existent and is very common now (not to say it isn't good to have). With an MBA, you'll definitely stand out and will do wonders for later internal promotions. It will almost always pay for itself later on (I have never seen it not with us and the people we know).