Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

Pancreas_sl said:

LFD is only part of the problem. I keep stating that when combining an LFD tool (that doesn't help you re-group with people), with cross server barriers, WITH shitty dungeons that don't require you to utter a word; it creates an environment where meeting new players becomes prohibitively difficult during the leveling game.

Click to expand...

Jesus H Tapdancing Titty Christ....not everyone in game wants to be your friend....not everyone in game wants to talk to you.

Put a mirror next to your monitor. If you put forth the effort to start a conversation and one or more people in the group don't respond...look in the mirror, tell youself it isn't personal, finish the dungeon, and try again. Goddamn what is your RL like? Do you curl up into a ball when the person behind you in line at the grocery store doesn't respond with more than hi when you say hi?

You keep stating the LFD tool doesn't help YOU re-group with people, well no shit, that's not it's job. It's job is to put together groups as fast as possible. That's it, no if's and's or but's, no maybe's. Re-grouping with people you've grouped with before is on YOU, it requires effort from YOU. Games have changed. Games today have far less downtime than they used to. Downtime between trash pulls in a dungeon isn't coming back anytime soon, if ever. YOU are the one that needs to adapt to current/future games, whether you like the current design or not has nothing to do with the conversation, cause the games are not going to adapt to you. Don't come back with cross-server or dungeon design or anything else about a game you have no control over, doing so is nothing more than a bullshit excuse for not putting more/repeated effort into "meeting" people. Meeting people and making friends is your responsibility, not the devs. You are either willing to put forth the effort to make friends with what you are given...or you're not.

I know I'm coming across like a dick but the whole "random strangers don't/won't talk to me, but they should and every single random stranger I encounter should be my friend too" thing is just mind-bottling.

Madsapper, I don't know what your issue is that causes you to get so riled up. But obviously since we don't share the same opinion there needs to be something personally wrong with you. Right?

The only point I have been trying to convey this whole time, is that the game design can facilitate or hinder social interaction. Now that sounds like a pretty reasonable statement to me.

I took it a step further and focused on dungeon design and the process by which players are brought together. This used to be a large portion of the social aspect of these games. It isn't any longer. The current design does make it more difficult to establish connections than in the past. It really does. Of course it is not impossible for people to socialize entirely. However, the pace at which the content is consumed is accelerated; and the need to actually communicate is diminished. Combine those two together and you wind up with fewer opportunities for player to player interaction.

That's it.

Now, if you would like to continue an actual discussion, great. If you just want to keep making ad hominem arguments, save your breath.

LFD could be so much better. Its a tool that is shallow in function because current games are shallow in execution.

Group for that elite quest, drop group the second its done. Group for the dungeon, drop group the second its done. People do this because the game is designed to be played by yourself 95%+ of the time. There is little reason to want to group with the same people again because most of them don't need to run the dungeon a second time and by the time you need that group again its very likely all of you will be several hubs / dungeons / zones different in content. The game itself punishes groups by its very design and this one factor has pretty much shit on the social part of grouping in MMOs.

Its incredibly difficult to keep people playing together because if you don't all log off exactly at the same time and get on at the same time every single night (more or less impossible) you simply can't participate in the same content with your friends because you've already done it. The game pretty much says GTFO to the next hub you faggot no moar rewards here.

Until this issue gets addressed in future MMO's the game systems will not advance past throw away random groups because there isn't a real reason for them to advance any further. The game itself doesn't reward grouping outside of these isolated incidents and treats them exactly like that. Once that changes we can look to add ratings, combining that with friends lists, allowing people to group cross server, encouraging grouping from start etc.

Until they abort the get 10 tasks, turn in 10 tasks MOVE TO THE NEXT HUB thing we're stuck with this shit.

CIRCULAR LOUD NOISES!

I personally think a lack of grouping tool at least as sophisticated as rift/tor is damning at launch. Doesn't have to be cross realm if they go the mega server route (I haven't read so pleading ignorance.)

Pancreas_sl said:

Madsapper, I don't know what your issue is that causes you to get so riled up. But obviously since we don't share the same opinion there needs to be something personally wrong with you. Right?

The only point I have been trying to convey this whole time, is that the game design can facilitate or hinder social interaction. Now that sounds like a pretty reasonable statement to me.

I took it a step further and focused on dungeon design and the process by which players are brought together. This used to be a large portion of the social aspect of these games. It isn't any longer. The current design does make it more difficult to establish connections than in the past. It really does. Of course it is not impossible for people to socialize entirely. However, the pace at which the content is consumed is accelerated; and the need to actually communicate is diminished. Combine those two together and you wind up with fewer opportunities for player to player interaction.

That's it.

Now, if you would like to continue an actual discussion, great. If you just want to keep making ad hominem arguments, save your breath.

Click to expand...

I said earlier that everyone has issues, pretty sure the word everyone includes me. I never said those issues were wrong, just that people have them. I get riled up because the argument that the anti-LFD/omg-community people make can always be boiled down to "people don't talk to me in dungeons," yet dungeons for the last 5-6+ years have been designed with minimal socialization and maximum completion in mind. That design philosophy doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. If you were to say that the socialization that has been removed from dungeons has not be added back into games elsewhere I would agree.

I brought up "If you can't spend 30 minutes with 3-4 other people in a zero to minimal downtime environment that you've done over and over and over and over and over without feeling the need to "talk" then it's you, not the other people in the group." in my first post in this thread because it's the truth. My second post in this thread quoted you saying LFD, cross-server, and dungeon design creates a prohibitive environment when it comes to meeting new players while leveling. I got riled up because the things you mentioned actually facilitate "meeting" players and quickly at that. I have yet to determine if you meant to say socializing and talking instead of meeting or if you equate meeting to socializing without talking.

That the game design can facilitate or hinder social interaction falls into the no shit category...it's an either/or statement. It sounds reasonable because it is reasonable. Everything one does either facilitates or hinders a goal.

You focused on dungeon design and the process by which players are brought together by comparing the past (facilitated socialization) with the present (hinders socialization). Here is my issue. Dungeon design and the process by which players are brought together are not about socialization. The goal using LFD is to get x number of players together as quickly as possible. Once you're in the dungeon the goal of dungeon design is to get those x number of players, who more than likely have never met, through the dungeon in a timely and successful manner. That is current and foreseeable future design.

You took me saying, what you as a player do with that design is your responsibility as an ad hominem. Eh, I can see it so let's try this.

Who is ultimately responsible, given current design, for when players socialize, the players or the devs?
Who is ultimately responsible, given current design, for how players socialize, the players or the devs?
Who is ultimately responsible, given current design, for where the players socialize, the players or the devs?
Given the current design of LFD tools, who is ultimately responsible for forming groups with players who have grouped together before, the players or the devs?

Now replace "current" with "past" and answer those 4 questions again.

To touch on Wildstar so as to not completely derail the thread, I absolutely love the fact that the devs are putting in 40 man raids. Why? Because "gasp" I enjoyed talking and socializing with people in raids during fights. Do I think the devs will implement 40 man raids in a way where players can have conversations not dealing with the fight during the fight using the chat window like we used to be able to? I doubt it. Do I think 40 man raids will still be in the game 2 years out? Nope, but I applaud them for trying.

Madsapper_sl said:

I said earlier that everyone has issues, pretty sure the word everyone includes me. I never said those issues were wrong, just that people have them. I get riled up because the argument that the anti-LFD/omg-community people make can always be boiled down to "people don't talk to me in dungeons,"yet dungeons for the last 5-6+ years have beendesignedwith minimal socialization and maximum completion in mind.That design philosophy doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. If you were to say that the socialization that has been removed from dungeons has not be added back into games elsewhere I would agree.

Click to expand...

Ok, so we can establish that much to be true.

Madsapper_sl said:

I brought up "If you can't spend 30 minutes with 3-4 other people in a zero to minimal downtime environment that you've done over and over and over and over and over without feeling the need to "talk" then it's you, not the other people in the group." in my first post in this thread because it's the truth. My second post in this thread quoted you saying LFD, cross-server, and dungeon design creates a prohibitive environment when it comes to meeting new players while leveling. I got riled up because the things you mentioned actually facilitate "meeting" players and quickly at that. I have yet to determine if you meant to say socializing and talking instead of meeting or if you equate meeting to socializing without talking.

Click to expand...

Socializing without talking is fucking or dancing. Doing silent dungeon runs makes it more difficult to establish any kind of connection with people. Communication is one way we differentiate ourselves from one another. This is especially true in a virtual environment. How do you usually determine if a player is a bot? You try talking to them. When players do not speak, they become not much more than really elaborate scripts.

Madsapper_sl said:

That the game design can facilitate or hinder social interaction falls into the no shit category...it's an either/or statement. It sounds reasonable because it is reasonable. Everything one does either facilitates or hinders a goal.

Click to expand...

Like communication facilitates the goal of making lasting impressions on people.

Madsapper_sl said:

You focused on dungeon design and the process by which players are brought together by comparing the past (facilitated socialization) with the present (hinders socialization). Here is my issue.Dungeon design and the process by which players are brought together are not about socialization.The goal using LFD is to get x number of players together as quickly as possible. Once you're in the dungeon the goal of dungeon design is to get those x number of players, who more than likely have never met, through the dungeon in a timely and successful manner. That is current and foreseeable future design.

Click to expand...

And that design has decided to make socialization, in the dungeon environment, irrelevant. Any aspect of the game could be shifted towards different goals. They shifted that one away from actually working with and communicating with other people. When people had to communicate to put a group together, and were pulling from a pool of players that they might just bump into again in their travels (local server only), the chances of creating a network of friends through those interactions was much greater.

Madsapper_sl said:

You took me saying, what you as a player do with that design is your responsibility as an ad hominem. Eh, I can see it so let's try this.

Click to expand...

No I took "Goddamn what is your RL like? Do you curl up into a ball when the person behind you in line at the grocery store doesn't respond with more than hi when you say hi?" as having a sort of personal element to it

Madsapper_sl said:

Who is ultimately responsible, given current design, for when players socialize, the players or the devs?
Who is ultimately responsible, given current design, for how players socialize, the players or the devs?
Who is ultimately responsible, given current design, for where the players socialize, the players or the devs?
Given the current design of LFD tools, who is ultimately responsible for forming groups with players who have grouped together before, the players or the devs?

Now replace "current" with "past" and answer those 4 questions again.

Click to expand...

The answer to all of those is BOTH. The devs create the space, the players utilize it. However, the space determines the activities that are facilitated. If the game that used to be played was hockey, but the devs replaced the rink with a roller-coaster; anyone who still tries to play hockey is going to get killed.

Madsapper_sl said:

To touch on Wildstar so as to not completely derail the thread, I absolutely love the fact that the devs are putting in 40 man raids. Why? Because "gasp" I enjoyed talking and socializing with people in raids during fights. Do I think the devs will implement 40 man raids in a way where players can have conversations not dealing with the fight during the fight using the chat window like we used to be able to? I doubt it. Do I think 40 man raids will still be in the game 2 years out? Nope, but I applaud them for trying.

Click to expand...

They seem to want to have a game with extremes. They want a bunch of niches and slots to try and fit as many different people as they can. There is the pvp niche with war plots, the ocd collector niche with housing, the pve niche with 40 man raiding that doesn't have 6 modes, and then the traditional casual niche with the leveling game and character paths. The success of each will be determined by the number of people that appreciate them. They will need to churn out a lot of different kinds of content to keep all those people happy.

They are probably going to layer things pretty thick and have all sorts of connections between the different areas. This might cause some sort of burn out if too much emphasis is placed on performance enhancing crossovers. I get a strength buff from the unique potion I can create in my home laboratory that utilizes the spirits of the dead idiots I murdalized while tending to my warplot. Suddenly anyone not doing all that shit is a scrub. Think profession buffs in WoW.

If all of the cross over rewards are quality of life or cosmetic though, then it shouldn't be a problem.

I think we can all agree that be it PVE or PVP, endgame content is generally group based. In Wildstar, the highest tier of content is actually 40 man in both spheres.

How do you propose to promote guild development if people aren't compelled to socialize? Do we just blind invite everyone into massive shitguilds and then weed out the retards as they present themselves? Or would it be preferable to implement systems that expose players to each other during the leveling game.

This isn't about 'omg I'm some socially deprived neck beard that needs you to talk to me for me to enjoy my ingame experience'. This is about developing networks that help everyone experience the endgame in a pleasant and meaningful way. People actually having to speak to each other to form a dungeon group, or a least discuss encounter tactics would certainly help this along.

Pancreas_sl said:

thoughts

Click to expand...

I don't need to establish a connection with nor do I need to create a last impression on the people I run dungeons with. Agree to disagree.

Opinions on the purpose of dungeons differ. Agree to disagree.

We're looking at the Ultimately questions differently I guess. Agree to disagree.

Hockey and the roller-coaster. Devs changed the games based on secret internal metrics or focus groups or the bean-counters or the pointy-haired-boss or whatever, for better or worse. Game design isn't going back anytime soon. Players need to suck it up and adapt or stop playing or kickstart their own game. Agree to disagree.

On to the Wildstar stuff. The information released so far sounds very ambitious but I think the majority of it is marketing. Not really interested in the pvp so I'll bypass that. Housing looks like it's going to be a blast. I think the housing shown so far is going to pull a large number of people in. Keep them, who knows?

I don't think the 40 mans are going to be around long unless they are LFR easy and have a LFR tool. And that in my mind will diminish the point. If the raids are not LFR easy and don't have LFR then I still don't see guilds sticking together and progressing with 40 people having to dodge fire even with the telegraphing 5 seconds before the effect lands.

I think the character paths are going to be similar to ToR's class stories in that yes taking the explorer path will give you quests to explore certain areas but at the time the fighter will have fighting quests in those same general areas and ALL paths will have the same filler quests to collect bear ass or fed-ex something for no apparent reason.

I haven't seen anything about performance enhancing crossovers. If they do add something in I'd like to see something similar to ToR's legacy system.

I remember hearing a dev state very clearly that they do not intend to use any form of LFR. Raids will strictly be manually constructed. And the same dev stated that they will definitely have an LFD tool.

Also, they are trying to create a difficult raid game. Difficult to the point where they realize the entire player base might not see it. Stating that this content is going to take a lot of time to produce and might not be seen by everyone; but that they feel it's important to have that 10% or 1% that gives other people something to admire in terms of loot and progression. People should be able to pick out the hardcore raiders from a crowd just by looking at them.

All of that was buried in one of the videos or interviews already linked here. Not sure where though.

Madsapper_sl said:

YOU are the one that needs to adapt to current/future games, whether you like the current design or not has nothing to do with the conversation, cause the games are not going to adapt to you.

Click to expand...

MMO market is rapidly shrinking--so your opinion is that the direction is headed should remain unchanged? I never quite got that about people like you, you're so confident about a market that's been on the decline since these things were added. From the looks of it (From an investor point of view, not a gamer), it seems like your assumption that the customer should be adapting to YOU, is not only fucking stupid, it's also failing.

Now, I'm not saying LFD is bad--I think it's a needed design feature, absolutely 100% needed. However, it can obviously be improved on, as with other systems, to bring back certain strengths that MMO's have, while taking the spot light off their weaknesses (Which one of the side effects of the LFD is it DOES shine a huge light on the repetitive nature of these games, which is a weakness, while detracting from social interaction, which is a strength). So, maybe before you puff your chest out and assume it's some old fossil's fault for not adapting to the times, you should think about how the MMO sphere is FAR from perfect, and MMO's themselves have stagnated and receded in terms of market share (Even in younger demographics, in fact, especially in them). Then ask yourself if the current course is the best course, or if maybe developers should be discussing how to improve those systems, rather than saying "lol, they better adapts!" Or, you know, the MMO space can continue to get it's fucking shit pushed in by tiny app games.

My thoughts are that LFD should be a tool to exploit group cooperation and play, not a system to streamline the treadmill to get the next item. It's only a subtle difference in design philosophy, mind you. But it ends up having big consequences in a game. Current LFD mechanics have pushed it toward the latter, hopefully someone will design around the former and we can have an LFD system that pushes other kinds of mechanics--since it hasn't be tried, who knows how good it might be.

Madsapper_sl said:

Hockey and the roller-coaster. Devs changed the games based on secret internal metrics or focus groups or the bean-counters or the pointy-haired-boss or whatever, for better or worse. Game design isn't going back anytime soon. Players need to suck it up and adapt or stop playing or kickstart their own game. Agree to disagree.

Click to expand...

If you've EVER been involved in market research, you understand something--the solutions are opinions. They are not some scientific gospel. Sometimes, the design is just the flat out wrong solution for delivery of supply (In any field, not just games)--and sometimes supplying X, leads to unforeseen market disruptions for Y--which could end up making your market strategy for X and overall net negative, even if it does it's job very effectively.

Understanding what people want is a job people makemillionsfor doing well--because it's probably one of, if not the most, difficult jobs in business. Just to give an example of why it's difficult though...Lets say In an MMO 7% of your population is estimated to leave if they can't access all content within Y time frame. So you increase accessibility only to find later you had long term losses far higher, because the increase in accessibility lead to faster than expected consumption, which affected an even bigger demographic of your market than those 7%. And that's just a simple cause-effect variable, when dealing with people there can be millions of variables, sometimes even what they say outright, can be a misrepresentation of their desires if the question is worded poorly.

It's such a difficult industry that saying people should quit complaining a pull up their bootstraps to deal with it is not only asinine, it's actually bad for the entire market. Customers are NEVER going to adapt to you, even fucking crack heads don't do that--the market will always, eventually, adapt to meet their demand unless you can enforce a monopoly (Which is something the game companies can absolutely not do.)

Tonic_sl said:

Why won't you ever talk to me Draegan, I just want to chat...

Click to expand...

Draegan doesn't talk to me either!
I want a LFDraegan tool

Seriously, there's a friends list. Use it.

The fact that people complain how they don't get to run with only a set group of people and that it ruins the social aspect is amusing I guess. The whole first word is MMO is massive, so a system that lets you group with new people you've never met is a good thing. Blaming it because you don't like certain dungeons or think it's not 100% perfect is pointless. They've benefited every game they've ever been in and are here to stay.

Tmac47_sl said:

Let's talk civil. Wildstar is already taking steps in the direction we've been discussing (and have discussed atlengthin the past)

If you take the Wildstar design of social circles and apply it, you have a greater chance to group with people who are like minded. Meaning, if you like talking, the chances of you grouping with people who also like talking are greater. Also, if you're a total pro who hates talking, the chances of you grouping with total pros who also hate talking is greater.

The point of this LFD discussion isnotto increase the amount of people who talk in a run, but rather increase the chance of playing the game with people you like playing the game with. Part of the equation, however, is actually playing with people enough so that they're familiar. From there you can determine whether or not you like playing with them.

The McDungeon LFD gives you neither.

Click to expand...

Without posting what I was quoting and highlighting, what you're quoting is out of context. It also was not nor is not directed at Wildstar's system. The point of the LFD discussion YOU were having may not have dealt with people talking or not talking but what I highlighted did.
What I quoted, highlighted and commented on was one person making a statement that dealt specifically with not talking during a dungeon run, one person asking a question that dealt specifically with not talking during a dungeon run, and the person that make the statement answering the question.

Telling me that you've been discussing the steps Wildstar has taken atlengthin the past is not civil, it's passive-aggressive. What I quoted and highlighted had nothing to do with Wildstar's LFG tool.

Saying the total pro hates talking while not adding adjectives to the person that likes talking is more passive-aggressiveness, more doesn't make it civil.

If you say "let's talk civil" and then you don't talk civil, how do you think the person you want to talk civil back is going to respond?

I have no problem with Wildstar's LFG tool. I think that if it's implemented in the right way it will be what every game that comes after will strive for. I agree that WoW's LFD tool gives none of the points you mentioned. That's why I think Wildstar's LFD tool should be the new industry standard until someone else comes along and improves upon it's design.

Quaid_sl said:

How do you propose to promote guild development if people aren't compelled to socialize? Do we just blind invite everyone into massive shitguilds and then weed out the retards as they present themselves? Or would it be preferable to implement systems that expose players to each other during the leveling game.

Click to expand...

I'm going to guess that this is directed at me. If so then it totally exaggerates your point, and misses the point of the person you are talking to.
You took my first post which specifically dealt with talking during a no downtime random daily run #243 of a McDungeon and my posts with Pancreas about how McLFD and McDungeons are designed more for quick completion instead of socialization and blew them way out of proportion. Have I ever said people shouldn't be compelled to socialize in this thread? Have I ever mentioned guilds or how to form or fill guilds in this thread?

To answer the second and third questions, the first question is a blatant over-exaggeration on your part, both methods are still used to this very day in games with and games without LFD tools. The blind invite method usually leads to more drama and more long term retention issues. Guilds that are formed by players that have had previous interactions and invite new players based off of interacting with the player first usually have less long term retention issues. These guilds also have less day to day or overall drama but can potentially have massive drama flare-ups.

Little bit of trivia: 40 man WoW raid guild way back in the day, joined the guild after grouping and talking with members. Last guild I joined in WoW while leveling MoP, joined after questing/dungeon/talking to members. Both guilds in ToR, joined Republic side after tearing ass through all the Taris heroics with members. Empire joined after an atrocious Fallen Emperor run with members ( tank wasn't a member and was the atrocious part but we talked through tells during the fights). I'm not the debil, I'm really not.

Did I start shit with my first two posts in this thread?, yea. Did Pancreas and I end up having a relatively civil conversation?, yea. Was any of that shit directed at either of you two?, no. Did both of you give me shit?, yea. Did I give shit back?, yea. Are we even? I dunno and I honestly don't care. I'm going to ask a question in a new post and I'm genuinely looking for input. Specifically from Tmac, Quaid, and now Lithose, but all input is welcome.

Lithose_sl said:

MMO market is rapidly shrinking--so your opinion is that the direction is headed should remain unchanged? I never quite got that about people like you, you're so confident about a market that's been on the decline since these things were added. From the looks of it (From an investor point of view, not a gamer), it seems like your assumption that the customer should be adapting to YOU, is not only fucking stupid, it's also failing.
-snip-
It's such a difficult industry that saying people should quit complaining a pull up their bootstraps to deal with it is not only asinine, it's actually bad for the entire market. Customers are NEVER going to adapt to you, even fucking crack heads don't do that--the market will always, eventually, adapt to meet their demand unless you can enforce a monopoly (Which is something the game companies can absolutely not do.)

Click to expand...

Um, that was directed at one person who would like to talk more than current McDungeons "allow" for. That was not an all enveloping statement meant to affect the market at the opening bell on Monday. You have far more financial knowledge than I do so I can see why you would never quite get a simple statement directed at one, count them, one person, made by people like me and could cause you to blow what people like me said WAY the fuck out of proportion. I said, "A tree" You heard, "THE FUCKING FOREST IS ON FIRE!!!" and proceeded to shit the bed with what appears to be a rhetorical question followed by an assumption or two about me and a couple of paragraphs of text I'm having a hard time disagreeing with.

If I could rewind time and type "YOU need to adapt to the way the majority of the people in your current group are using the current design to play the game" instead, would that still cause you to hear "THE FOREST IS ON FIRE!!!" and shit the bed on me? Would you still assume that I'm hellbent on driving the mmo market to the center of the earth to use in my S'mores? Or would genuine curiosity about my views on whether the direction of the current mmo market should remain unchanged form?

The problem with discussing specific game mechanic or features of an MMO is the fact that MMORPGs in particular are a collection of many things that when all combined would deliver an "experience". Discussing Feature X would not work in an MMO will probably always be TRUE if all the other collection-of-mechanics-and-game-design-concepts suggests that.

In other words, your perception of the imaginary MMORPGs you currently plugging this Feature X to, varies. Some features will work well in a game like World of Warcraft while they won't make any sense in a game like Ultima Online (for instance).

Something like "No instant traveling" will NEVER EVER work in game that always ask you to travel and if you don't you will be at a big disadvantage. So, discussing that insta-travel is bad to someone with a rigid reference of what an MMORPG is will never work. And the funny thing is that both of you would be correct at the same time.

In order to clarify why your opinion make sense.... you need to deliver a Design Document and only then the puzzles will be complete and everything will make sense. But without that it's very hard to make your point clear.

Add to this the fact that we can have different MMORPG sub-genres which will have their own target audience. So, you can't really say "this will not work" it's like saying "Turn Based Strategy games will not work, kids now dig RTS." and hey... the "we don't have time for feature X anymore" excuse to bash some features is bullcrap.

Madsapper_sl said:

Um, that was directed at one person who would like to talk more than current McDungeons "allow" for. That was not an all enveloping statement meant to affect the market at the opening bell on Monday. You have far more financial knowledge than I do so I can see why you would never quite get a simple statement directed at one, count them, one person, made by people like me and could cause you to blow what people like me said WAY the fuck out of proportion. I said, "A tree" You heard, "THE FUCKING FOREST IS ON FIRE!!!" and proceeded to shit the bed with what appears to be a rhetorical question followed by an assumption or two about me and a couple of paragraphs of text I'm having a hard time disagreeing with.

If I could rewind time and type "YOU need to adapt to the way the majority of the people in your current group are using the current design to play the game" instead, would that still cause you to hear "THE FOREST IS ON FIRE!!!" and shit the bed on me? Would you still assume that I'm hellbent on driving the mmo market to the center of the earth to use in my S'mores? Or would genuine curiosity about my views on whether the direction of the current mmo market should remain unchanged form?

Click to expand...

No, I heard this.

Madsapper_sl said:

JYou keep stating the LFD tool doesn't help YOU re-group with people, well no shit,that's not it's job. It's job is to put together groups as fast as possible.That's it, no if's and's or but's, no maybe's

Click to expand...

Now, imagine the Cell Phone market if some guy had stomped his foot down and said "Cell phones should only be about calling other people! RARW!"--yeah, that guy would have lost out on a hundred BILLION dollar expansion in the market that came from combining "Apps" with phones.

Your perception of the LFD system, which is probably one of the most ubiquitous systems for social engineering within the MMO market, is just narrow thinking. The reality is, the LFD system is ahugesystem, that touches a massive % of the player base--and it's still a NEW system, in a NEW market. No one should feel confident enough to say "this is all it should do!" Again, there are SO many variables with people that this tool could end up being used to achieve a radically expanded set of goals, even if it's base premise remains the same (Again, think cell phones.)

So to improve on your "tree" comparison. Sure, you may besaying"tree" andnotforest, but I see that the whole forest is full of dried up kindling and your single tree is going to make that mother fucker burn with the fury of a thousand suns.