Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

I don't see the issue with telegraphs in pvp, the entire game is built around them. Hell if anything being able to dodge and move out of moves if you can is a lot more skillfull, then "sorry you are the target and you are going to get hit no matter what unless you get lucky and you roll a avoidance hit" and unlike gw2 you are not immune during the roll, so you need to be out to not get hit.

I would have preferred full action style game like Tera but I think its going to be better then GW's stab at action combat. Tera pvp was insanely fun, because you could literally dance around people and never get hit(they had few lock on abilities which were still able to be dodged if timed right).

Sabbat_sl said:

I want to know, from both Barab and yourself (and anyone else for that matter)whytelegraphs are such a problem for you in PvP.

Click to expand...

Well, it's not a "problem" really, but it seems like it would take some of the skill or - I hate to use this term again - mystery from the combat. "Hey, I'm doin' this ability, here it comes, see the circle closing? 3 seconds until it goes off!!"

But, that's opinion based on past experience; time will tell what it's actually like in Wildstar.

As long as I can make them less intrusive (GW2 style colored borders are fine imo) the telegraphs work for me, and they dont cheapen PVP either imo.

I do agree that kills need to take a bit longer. A bit, not 5 minutes per mob. maybe 30 seconds for a single mob where depending on what the mob does I might do things a bit differently each fight, instead of 1-1-2-3-loot within 6 seconds. XP/kill and kills needed etc can still be adjusted to meet the desired advancment speed so thats not the issue. I've played alot of GW2 this year and generally fights with veterans there are more fun then plowing through trash you kill with 3 attacks, especially because movement and AE abilities do come into play at times. I also used a 10-day WoW trial a few days ago and run through level-appropriate 60s/70s content one-shotting stuff, not really entertaining. I quit before WotLK so it might be different at cap (I hope it's different, because jeez).

Personal skill, taking skill away, mystery of combat.

Game has zero telegraphs in pvp. Players in equal gear. You can't tell what the player you're fighting is doing, ever. The fight consists of 1v1 and using your abilities while the other player does the same. I'll give you mystery of combat for free, but I see very little skill other than knowing how much damage each ability does and what the cast time and/or cooldown is.

Game has minimal telegraphs for cast time abilities only and only during the cast, swing animations and cast animations. Players in equal gear. You can see what the player you're fighting is doing as long as the incoming ability has a cast time. The fight still consists of 1v1 but now you've lost the mystery since you know what's coming because you took the time to learn but have added skill since you react accordingly to what you see coming.

Game has telegraphs for cast time abilities and also leaves some form of poopy on the ground reminding you not to stand there. Instant non aoe abilities have no telegraph. Players in equal gear, fight consists of 1v1. There is no mystery in terms of what is coming, the mystery is the skill level of the other player. Will the other player fake a telegraph in the hopes of you burning cc or interrupt only to break cc or cast from another school? How does the player react when you fake a telegraph?

Knowing what is coming and knowing the other player knows what is coming does not remove skill. Knowing what is coming and knowing the other player knows what is coming and still winning the fight is personal skill.

..and Madsapper comes in for the win, great post dude, well thought out and written.

All of the previous dislike for telegraphs in PvP (and for that matter, PvE) stems from the fear that the "elite" player will be closer to skill to the clueless noob by virtue of a UI element. Big deal if the clueless nooblet has a greater chance to know that bad shit is about to happen, if you've got more skill than him, you'll bait him out, trap him in a chain by forcing him to use his dodges on stuff he doesn't need to dodge and pound his face in when you drop the hammer.

It will also been that via proxy, every PvP fight you engage in will generally have a higher skill cap that other games.

Complaining about telegraphs in Wildstar PvP is like saying Dota's Pudge hook is too easy to dodge and unskilled because you can see it coming. And for people wanting "combat mystery" in Wildstar, if you think telegraphs are Satan's job, I have more bad news for you : enemy casting bars and community addons.

You know, telegraphs can be a pretty good thing in MMOs...if used right.

Let's say you get acquainted with Mob X's telegraphs and know how to deal with it. You yawn at it.

Let's say you come up against another Mob X.

That Mob X uses the same telegraph...but not quite the same color. Similar so you react the same.

Then you're dead, thinking "WTF????"

Think about it.

Telegraphs don't necessarily mean where the strike will hit in an obvious area.

This could cross over into PvP teamwork if things worked that way in this game.

That sounds fucking retarded and you sound like a retard for thinking that's a good thing.

That's just stupid to have an action do one thing and then the same action do a completely different randomly chosen thing. That's shitty design.

You're talking privileges have been revoked for two weeks.

Your*talking privileges have been revoked for two teraseconds.

What's the penalty for being a Dolphins fan? That has to be pretty severe.

Agraza_sl said:

Your*talking privileges have been revoked for two teraseconds.

Click to expand...

I don't see what I did wrong, there the one that fucked up.

More like making fun of my mistake.

Draegan_sl said:

At the very least, it's something different. I think they're kind of cool.

Click to expand...

I'm quite ignorant about Wildstar still, but in what these telegraphs differ from GW2 red circles and long winded OHK animations?
I enjoyed a lot combat in GW2, with it being a lot more dynamic than in other games; it's in fact one of the reasons I'm interested and intrigued by Wildstar, hence my questioning.

Miele_sl said:

I'm quite ignorant about Wildstar still, but in what these telegraphs differ from GW2 red circles and long winded OHK animations?
I enjoyed a lot combat in GW2, with it being a lot more dynamic than in other games; it's in fact one of the reasons I'm interested and intrigued by Wildstar, hence my questioning.

Click to expand...

I'm at work so I can't google up some videos for you, but they're all sorts of varying shapes and patterns, instead of just circles. A boss fight from the esper video was mostly all red with some almost checkboard-like areas you stood in. Typical landscape mobs seem to be the usual circles and arc shapes. They have videos showing a large range of telegraph shapes.

Miele_sl said:

I'm quite ignorant about Wildstar still, but in what these telegraphs differ from GW2 red circles and long winded OHK animations?
I enjoyed a lot combat in GW2, with it being a lot more dynamic than in other games; it's in fact one of the reasons I'm interested and intrigued by Wildstar, hence my questioning.

Click to expand...

Just imagine every single mob (trash or boss) spamming a telegraph with every attack (aside from the rare normal attack), such that if you happen to pull more than 2 mobs, all you will see on the ground are various colored shapes. Every mob, every fight...telegraphs telegraphs telegraphs. If you can accept that, you'll like WildStar.

I don't know about post-winter beta, but not every attack from a mob is a telegraph. That might of changed though.

I really dont get why telegraphs are even discussed - it seems no different than any particular AE done in WoW. WoW has been DDR for years, but i guess they should have gave it a gimmick name to attract the retard player-base who need big bright colors on the ground for gameplay? Don't get me wrong i feel wow has gone full retard on its DDR game style too but just trying to see what makes this any better.

X X E X X_sl said:

I really dont get why telegraphs are even discussed - it seems no different than any particular AE done in WoW. WoW has been DDR for years, but i guess they should have gave it a gimmick name to attract the retard player-base who need big bright colors on the ground for gameplay? Don't get me wrong i feel wow has gone full retard on its DDR game style too but just trying to see what makes this any better.

Click to expand...

For me, its having played Tera a lot, where there were minimal telegraphs used for mob attacks. What made combat fun was learning the signs of an impending attack.

Obviously FFXIV has telegraphs already. Two things I foresee with the system in a more WoW like game :

1. Balancing PvP/PvE is going to be even more of a pita than it already is. Good luck with that - both in terms of, firstly, getting the balance theoretically and implementing it and secondly dealing with the customer perception/vocal minority. Further, if they're going to implement any instant casts then they may as well kiss their ass goodnight before they even start trying to keep the complainers down. And if they aren't implementing instant casts then that's a big negative to a lot of people who play MMOs.

2. Implementing the telegraphs to account for both the skill of the player base and lag. It might be said that you have the same thing without the telegraph system, but I think it's up for debate and believe that it's a lot harder to balance. Everything comes at a cost. The cost of using telegraphs is that with such obvious 'tells' timing has to be more harsh to make the experience work.

Because timing is tighter it's either too easy for a large portion or it's too hard and lag is going to overcome the skill of some people. Titan in FFXIV is a case in point. Those of us who have done it hundreds of times and do 'carrys' know that some days you log in and lag is definitely a factor. You're suddenly dieing a couple of times in a row, even when on your screen you're the first to react and believe you're on the other side of the arena when the abilities land. Lots of people have to use WTFcast or BattlePing to even be able to play.


Having said all that I like the telegraph system. The salient point is that in MMOS everything comes at a cost.