Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion
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Voldeth
Trakanon Raider
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Just finished reading a recent article on the 40 man raids (link:http://www.warcry.com/news/view/1304...Raid-Mechanics) and it sounds like they're willing to scrap the idea passed the original zone if it doesn't work out. Since I'm part of the reach max level asap and get to the end game crowd, I really hope that the 40 man raids prove popular enough for more of them to be made. A large portion of my hope in this game is based on what they've been saying in regards to their end game content. I realize that it's a nightmare to tune a difficult raid with 40 people but it's been a long time since I've had massive PVE raids and I want them back.
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The thing I don't see working well though is 40man with the action+telegraph combat thing. There's gonna be telegraphs everywhere to be remotely challenging for a 40man. I mean, it could be really cool and would have a very high difficulty if it was like a Touhou bullet hell shmup of telegraphs, but if it's not it risks being fucking boring as shit. Their idea seems to split the raid in smaller subfights, I guess a bit like wow phased/different rooms fights like Chtun/YogSaron where you would have people getting moved somewhere else to do some shit and what not. That could be nice but maybe a bit gimmicky if every boss is like that. Guess we'll see.
iannis
Musty Nester
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It'll have to be splitting the raid into subfights, for the most part. EQ 1 giant avatar of war tank and spank didn't work that great in EQ, it didn't work that great in vanilla wow, and it straight up won't work at all with a more modern mmo combat dynamic.
Either subfights or zergrushes. I don't see a reasonable middle ground if you're looking at 40v1. But subfights don't have to be gimicky at all. That's still 8 groups of people doing 8 groups of stuff. It has every potential to be harder than EQ ever thought about being and absolutely nightmarish. And they can avoid the e-choreography of intensely tuned scripts that rot the core of WoW and Rift raids.
They can avoid that.
Either subfights or zergrushes. I don't see a reasonable middle ground if you're looking at 40v1. But subfights don't have to be gimicky at all. That's still 8 groups of people doing 8 groups of stuff. It has every potential to be harder than EQ ever thought about being and absolutely nightmarish. And they can avoid the e-choreography of intensely tuned scripts that rot the core of WoW and Rift raids.
They can avoid that.
Bondurant
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think they're gonna need to re-evaluate things since WoW went flexible raids + 20 man competitive PvE comes next addon. Wildstar's 40man raiding being the competitive scene is definitely not a good move, every raid officer / manager / guild master remembers how awful it was to handle 40 man raids. That's why I'm concerned about warplots as well, there's not way 40v40 instanced clusterfuck PvP is gonna be competitive. Appealing to nostalgia is nice, but not everyone wears them rose-tinted glasses all day long.
Arch
Lord Nagafen Raider
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The best PvP gear is from warplots so that's where the try hards will be I imagine.
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I don't see why they just don't make it flexible up to 40, with a minimum of 10. Make 40-man give the best loot, but don't just force everyone to deal with 40 fuck nuts.
And that's the real problem, they're trying to champion the idea of 'difficult' encounters where everyone has to pay attention and be involved for the raid success....but it's nearly impossible to have a raid of 40 skilled players. There's always a handful that have to be carried just to round out the raid. Not to mention the 'social' issues of having to put up with assholes or other people you dislike just to get to the #40 as well.
I'm looking forward to this game, and I applaud that they're trying to do something 'different' (and by different, I mean just going back to what was popular 10 years ago). But I don't think their convictions are strong enough to stick to this design model, if it relegates them to being a niche game.
Malakriss
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Most 40 man encounters in WoW did not require a full group of 40 bodies to meet a script requirement or even the majority of them to be geared out to the max. There needed to be competent people playing important roles and everyone needed positional awareness but there was already a degree of flex built right in before even considering the flask/potion/buff situation. That obviously changed over the course of vanilla as they learned how to do more complex scripted fights but outdoor bosses especially showed that you could do encounters with much less as long as you did them right.
Christ if you were like everyone else your guild was killing Heigan with 20 or less halfway through.
Christ if you were like everyone else your guild was killing Heigan with 20 or less halfway through.
Bondurant
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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I do remember our first Lucifron kill, we were about 31 I think. We got stuck a bit later (because casual family-oriented guild, not hardcore optimizers) until we got more bodies to throw at Garr.
Never did it in Vanilla, but the Naxx10 we killed him once with 3 (the MT, a mage and me). It took ages since we were basically only 3 after the first dance.
Bondurant
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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What's worrying about warplots is Carbine wants them to be competitive (best gear, etc). Designing 40v40 instanced PvP and called it competitive is a flaw in my opinion, unless they're reinventing the wheel.
Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
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If the raids are tuned for 40 so-so players, then theres no reason 30 top-of-their-game players can't tackle it. Problem fucking solved, quit bitching.
BigDirty
Security Director of Crisis and Weather Management
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i cant believe some of you are pushing for "FLex" raids or smaller size , make the hard content actually hard IMO , its not hard to find 40 people who arnt retards if you actually try and give a shit about being competitive , not just invite every random scrub who wants to join your guild
Byr
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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40 man raids are hard, hard to find something for 40 different people to do.
Bondurant
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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If they have server transfers right off the bat it might not be too hard to keep a guild going, but otherwise it's gonna be as much of a pain as it was in vanilla. Yes it's hard to find 40people who want to be competitive. It's especially hard if you're not currently the first guild on your server. I mean obviously in a perfect world you're the #1 raiding guild in the world and you get applications like justin bieber gets lovemail, but if you're not but still want to do cutting edge raiding, it's hard as all fuck. The best guild will eat all your potential recruits, will eat into your current members who are tired of having to deal with the retards and not being able to progress because of a lack of good applications, and eventually either die out or turn into a casual guild.
It was horrible then and it'll probably be horrible again, I just don't see any good way to get around the problem of recruitement, attrition and so on which are amplified a fuckton when doing 40man raiding. Oh and all the people sitting out, since you'll probably want a 60ish ppl roster at least to run 40man, so you'll have to do scheduling and shit.
Running a competitive raiding guild in vanilla wow was a fucking nightmare.
As for warplots, they've said they'll drop best loot? It seems a bit weird they'd make those drop best loot instead of arena. While I never liked arenas too much in wow, it made perfect sense to me that the best loot was from them, because it's the mode that required the most dedication/skill(well until people figured they only had to play a bunch the first week of a season then play their minimum matches every week until the end to maintain ranking).
Running old AV in a guild vs guild(until they fucked up the sync queues) was definitely fun but wasn't near the amount of skill required, mostly it was general strategy and whoever had the most good aoes to break the chokes, mostly mages spamming blizzard and AP/PoM/Pyro to take out a healer out of position, rogues trying to not get hit by the waves of aoe to assassinate healers and windfury warriors once the shit started crumbling to slaughter everyone left.
It was horrible then and it'll probably be horrible again, I just don't see any good way to get around the problem of recruitement, attrition and so on which are amplified a fuckton when doing 40man raiding. Oh and all the people sitting out, since you'll probably want a 60ish ppl roster at least to run 40man, so you'll have to do scheduling and shit.
Running a competitive raiding guild in vanilla wow was a fucking nightmare.
As for warplots, they've said they'll drop best loot? It seems a bit weird they'd make those drop best loot instead of arena. While I never liked arenas too much in wow, it made perfect sense to me that the best loot was from them, because it's the mode that required the most dedication/skill(well until people figured they only had to play a bunch the first week of a season then play their minimum matches every week until the end to maintain ranking).
Running old AV in a guild vs guild(until they fucked up the sync queues) was definitely fun but wasn't near the amount of skill required, mostly it was general strategy and whoever had the most good aoes to break the chokes, mostly mages spamming blizzard and AP/PoM/Pyro to take out a healer out of position, rogues trying to not get hit by the waves of aoe to assassinate healers and windfury warriors once the shit started crumbling to slaughter everyone left.