Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

Draegan_sl said:

Didn't EQ2 have that dps meter program that was really amazing? I forget what it is off the top of my head.

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They had a couple. Something that started with a "A" that did audio queues and shit heh.

Edit: Too slow! ACT! Thanks Ixian.

Apostolos_sl said:

We should tailor our social circles around a computer game? That is just stupid. If I have 80 friends in my guild why the hell should that matter? I understand how instanced encounters will only allow X number of people in a fight, but I remember the same handful of people helping out our entire guild get keys on multiple occasions. I just wish that lockout timers did not screw over a guild's ability to include all its members. There needs to be a compromise between no drop items and the ability to include those who were not able to go on a raid. I am not saying I know the perfect solution to that, but the statement to tailor our social circles to a game is kinda silly.

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You don't have to tailor yourentiresocial circle around a game. Someone does have to draw a line in the sand though. If a game supports 20 man raiding at the most then having a guild with 80 people in it is silly. People obviously still choose to go that way and that is great, but it does put leaders in a position to tell people they can't raid tonight. It sucks, and I have been the person to have that job and I hated it. I just don't think the fix to that is removing the caps and letting people go wild. Throwing 80 people at a encounter is bad enough, but what about those "family guilds" that have 300 people in them? Like I said someone has to set the limits or people will just get stupid with it. They couldn't design encounters that are challenging if the players are allowed to rally half the server to kill it.

I guess the best way is to offer a bit for everyone? Have raids that have no caps, but then add zones that have lockouts and player caps?

mkopec_sl said:

Take healing in WoW for an example. Without a proper mouseover mod, its damn near impossible to heal now because they design the game around it.

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They don't really design the game around that stuff. Those mods are needed because there is so much fucking sensory overload occurring, you need something to streamline certain aspects of your character class. This is the tradeoff with "difficulty". The more difficult you make the encounter, the more things you have going on that you have to pay attention to. You can only pay attention to something so much and for so long, before your attention is needed elsewhere. Hence the need for mods to make certain things easier/smoother. That way you can shift focus faster, move out of the fire while healing/dpsing/tanking, etc. Mods are simply a product of difficulty. They are a quality of life thing, that inevitably spawns out of content becoming more and more difficult. I used only a handful(1-5)mods during vanilla WoW. As the game progressed, got more difficult, I started to need more and more. It's why most people's UIs are so bloated now. It's also why you never really see mods for easier games. There isn't a need for them because the content is easier, less is going on, etc.

Lost Ranger_sl said:

No. DPS meters are mostly a personal ego thing. You use them to better yourself. Choosing to be ignorant of your performance I guess is a personal choice, but I have never heard a good reason for not having them.

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People who choose to stay ignorant of their performance are usually those who rail hardest against things like how DPS meters shouldn't be required, etc. They are typically the members of your guild who suck. They also like to rail against "strats", "videos", and the like. Basically, they just want to show up and have the other 19-39 people carry their ignorance through content. People who aren't willing to analyze and better/correct their performance are those who you don't want in a serious raid environment.

Slaythe_sl said:

We're starting to get pretty close to neckbeard discussion here but I"ll just say I think raid size limits are pretty lame. Tailor loot to be finite and allow people to down mobs with as many people as they want. Zerg guilds still get to see the content. Elite guilds will gear up faster. It seems like the easiest solution to a lot of these problems.

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Yes, I have always been in favor of this solution. Possibly, add some competitive mode where you can lock the raid size for your guild for a raid tier so that guilds can compete if they want.

mkopec_sl said:

I could care less about DPS meters and whatever. The thing I dislike about shit like that is the stupid childish meta game and culture thats formed around mods like that. Like you have to have build xxx to do xxxxx DPS....you have to do xxxx DPS or else you fail. You have to have gearscore yyy in order to join my group.... THATS the shit I hate about those types of mods.

I know they will never be left out of games now because they are ingrained in the psyche of the player, but the culture that forms around mods like that is just stupid IMO.

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Yeah, the culture of wanting to be better or the best at something? Fuck that! I'm all about remaining ignorant and playing like shit! Elitist pricks!

mkopec_sl said:

No there is just something to be said about leaving a bit of mystery around some shit rather than having every ounce of your game turn into a massive spreadsheet. Thats all. It just makes the entire thing boring, and tiring in the end.

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Leave the mystery to the game world, setting, lore, etc. My character performance not onlyneedsto be, butshouldbe 100% transparent.

This is why we need the up/down-vote option when grouping with players. If people want to be ignorant of their performances and just ho-hum through dungeons, raids, etc. they can do so with the rest of the players who can't be bothered to give a shit and still retain some stupid sense of "mystery" about how shitty they are doing.

I'm all for mystery, but not when it comes to player performance. While meters can breed assholes with unrealistic expectations, having "mystery" can breed laziness. The people who just want to "play for fun" and don't see any problem with doing 1000 dps while everyone else in the group is doing 15,000 dps. Meters opened a lot of peoples eyes to just how many assholes are out there trying to get carried. I consider elitist pricks to be the lesser of two evils when compared to people who are trying to take advantage of others.

Edit: What Kirun said.

So everything in moderation. But I just want to auto attack with my hunter while I make a sandwich, and have loot ready to roll on when I get back!

Sounds like a personal problem mkopec. If you do all the research and figure out the 100% best spec/gear based on someone else's work then that is your problem. I personally prefer to figure that stuff out myself. I designed all of my specs in WoW on my own. They ended up being close to what was considered cookie cutter, but hey...math tends to add up. Same thing with gear. I'd use websites like wowhead to see what was available down the road, but the testing was all mine looking for best results.

This is actually a old debate, and the answer remains the same. If you choose to deny yourself the satisfaction of figuring things out yourself, you can't run to the forums to bitch about mystery being gone. If you want to read websites like elitist jerks, and follow someone else's hard work then at least be man enough to admit that the problem is yours and not the games.

Every one is exaggerating. in reality if player is decent and doesn't optimize they do a decent amount less dps but not several hundred times less. Really the two groups being those who are willing to farm every consumable under the planet for increased dps and make sure every talent point is optimally spent vs those who show up with a few points in fun skills and no buffs doing a few hundred less dps. It can make or break a raid doing new content and is far less of an issue on future attempts on content already beaten.

*Both groups can have guys who can't handle a rotation worth a damn and step by step directions but that's really unrelated to what we're talking about as they're generally bad, but not trying to take advantage of anyone.

ixian_sl said:

ACT. It actually supports multiple games via its plugin engine.

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it was good, we used that for vanguard also.

Lost Ranger_sl said:

Meters opened a lot of peoples eyes to just how many assholes are out there trying to get carried.

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Or people that are nice and fun to play with but that never will be skilled players. Back in EQ or early WoW these players were fine. Sure, they "got carried" but since there were no meters and you killed the bosses anyway everything was ok. A few years of meters, spreadsheets and "hard raids" later these people are very rare indeed in guilds that do any serious raiding. That's actually one of the reasons that I rarely raid anymore. Raiding has become like work, and I like to get paid real money for work.

Lost Ranger_sl said:

Sounds like a personal problem mkopec. If you do all the research and figure out the 100% best spec/gear based on someone else's work then that is your problem. I personally prefer to figure that stuff out myself. I designed all of my specs in WoW on my own. They ended up being close to what was considered cookie cutter, but hey...math tends to add up. Same thing with gear. I'd use websites like wowhead to see what was available down the road, but the testing was all mine looking for best results.

This is actually a old debate, and the answer remains the same. If you choose to deny yourself the satisfaction of figuring things out yourself, you can't run to the forums to bitch about mystery being gone. If you want to read websites like elitist jerks, and follow someone else's hard work then at least be man enough to admit that the problem is yours and not the games.

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Dood I want to join you in an MMO... i approach the same way ! In fact at one point in eq2 ( when pvp was released ) we purposely did not look for guides we figured out each raid ourselves.. probably why these are my fondest memories of raiding. The guild i was in briefly in RIFT had the same approach but we did not get that far as we broke up when folks started to leave... kinda regret that a bit.

Asherah_sl said:

Or people that are nice and fun to play with but that never will be skilled players. Back in EQ or early WoW these players were fine. Sure, they "got carried" but since there were no meters and you killed the bosses anyway everything was ok. A few years of meters, spreadsheets and "hard raids" later these people are very rare indeed in guilds that do any serious raiding. That's actually one of the reasons that I rarely raid anymore. Raiding has become like work, and I like to get paid real money for work.

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I have no problems with nice folks who are just not very good at the game. I just don't think I should be forced to play with them because everything is shrouded in secrecy. Its nothing personal. I just prefer to spend my time online playing with people who share the same goals, and views on gaming that I do. Meters have let people do just that.

I'm sorry if that means average players don't get invited to cutting edge content anymore.