Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

Kreugen

Kreugen

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TSW had telegraphs, too. Nice big "get out of the way, dumbass" lines on the ground starting right in the very first zone. And it was less complex than Wildstar because they were only for bad-shit and not also for stand-here-to-get-healed shit. And of course, in dungeons they became one-shot mechanics that people died to FUCKING CONSTANTLY. This in spite of the fact that to even be eligible for those dungeons you had a defeat a pretty difficult solo encounter that involve all sorts of dodging, kiting, interrupting, etc. It was a pretty smart idea and it was well implemented. Hell the dps version was one of the best fights in the game. And yet it completely failed to weed out the dead weight.

Fuck hair-trigger instant death mechanics. MMO players suck at games too much for that kind of shit.
 
Valderen

Valderen

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Some fun sounding idea in there Draegan.

The other thing they could do is offer more reward the better you defeat the encounter...no deaths, less people, under a certain time, etc...

That way they could tune the encounter with more leeway for mistakes, but still have incentive to perform better. Since they plan on having leaderboards which will already push the hardcore to be better, this would just add to that incentive.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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I don't think tiered rewards would really work. That would just being a perceived mandatory.
you know, gearscore above 9000 only invite type shit. if you reward for flawless, then suddenly everyone is going to demand flawless to get the best rewards.
 
xzi

xzi

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God, that's another thing. I hope they don't show gearscore at all because it was/is beyond annoying when you're at 359 GS but you need 360 to enter the raid. Just let retards bash it out and enter raids undergeared, they'll figure it out real quick. As far as WoW goes with GS, it was also a thing of not even about bringing a certain class but bringing someone with your wanted GS. That was moreso the community that made it completely annoying though, and you know that is going to carry over into this game if they do gearscore type shit. Just upgrade the stats, who cares what ilvl it is. Leave some mystery.
 
Skanda

Skanda

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Draegan_sl said:
B)Multiple group gauntlets- This could be timed or not, but essentially you break your raid down into individual groups. Could be 4 groups of 10 or 8 groups of 5, it doesn't matter. Build a portion of the raid so that it splits off into four different sections. It could be simple passageways, or bigger areas, or "dimensions" you have to enter and win. Doesn't matter. Each group needs to fight their way to the end. Each group needs to be successful in order to continue on. Here's one example.
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I am reminded of Furor's PoTime rant.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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xzi_sl said:
God, that's another thing. I hope they don't show gearscore at all because it was/is beyond annoying when you're at 359 GS but you need 360 to enter the raid. Just let retards bash it out and enter raids undergeared, they'll figure it out real quick. As far as WoW goes with GS, it was also a thing of not even about bringing a certain class but bringing someone with your wanted GS. That was moreso the community that made it completely annoying though, and you know that is going to carry over into this game if they do gearscore type shit. Just upgrade the stats, who cares what ilvl it is. Leave some mystery.
Click to expand...
yeah, theres hard coded gates. and player created gates. guild vs pug is one obvious example.
But if you reward for performance, suddenly everyone will demand forming a group with performing optimally. A player created gate that is in many ways worse then the artificial one. As we are right back to, oh you are the wrong spec? fuck you. wrong class? fu, not geared enough, fu. This is definitely not better.
now, sure the rewards could be something dumb like bonus healing potions, or an achievement. Rift for example had achievements for that. And that won't be too big of a deal, as its then clearly an optional thing.
 
Haus

Haus

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I like the idea of timed events/encounters. Defeat boss X and get <loot> , defeat him in under so many minutes and get <loot>+<loot> (or <loot++), and so on... rewarding more efficient/effective teams with either more or better loot. Want better loot? Learn to play better.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Caliane_sl said:
I don't think tiered rewards would really work. That would just being a perceived mandatory.
you know, gearscore above 9000 only invite type shit. if you reward for flawless, then suddenly everyone is going to demand flawless to get the best rewards.
Click to expand...
So what? That's going to happen no matter what kind of raid design you have.
 
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eek_sl

shitlord
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Caliane_sl said:
yeah, theres hard coded gates. and player created gates. guild vs pug is one obvious example.
But if you reward for performance, suddenly everyone will demand forming a group with performing optimally. A player created gate that is in many ways worse then the artificial one. As we are right back to, oh you are the wrong spec? fuck you. wrong class? fu, not geared enough, fu. This is definitely not better.
now, sure the rewards could be something dumb like bonus healing potions, or an achievement. Rift for example had achievements for that. And that won't be too big of a deal, as its then clearly an optional thing.
Click to expand...
Rift achievements also had some novelty cosmetic rewards. Titles and such, and if you completed all of the achievements for a raid, you'd get a fancy mount. Not really the greatest of incentives to be honest, just icing on the cake. All it did was give farm days a little more interest.

As everyone stated, tiered rewards are meh. The tiers are either unmeaningful, or too meaningful. People's opinions of them will end up being binary.

Having both 40 and 20 man raids is just incredibly problematic. Almost by definition, a 40man raid should reward better gear, since they require far more effort to organize and execute. Yet, the primary difficulty differences between 20 and 40, are not in-game differences, but entirely logistical. This then leads to either side clamoring about who should get better or equal loot. 40 man raiders will argue that they have to put more work into a raid. 20 man raiders will argue the raids should reward based on in-game ability. If 20 man raids end up rewarding the same quality of gear as 40 man raids, then 40 man raids will almost entirely disappear. Who wants to herd 20 more cats, and deal with double the amount of carrying, for equal rewards? This doesn't even go into the issue of having your design team create 2 sets of raids to keep both groups happy.
 
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Draegan_sl

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xzi_sl said:
God, that's another thing. I hope they don't show gearscore at all because it was/is beyond annoying when you're at 359 GS but you need 360 to enter the raid. Just let retards bash it out and enter raids undergeared, they'll figure it out real quick. As far as WoW goes with GS, it was also a thing of not even about bringing a certain class but bringing someone with your wanted GS. That was moreso the community that made it completely annoying though, and you know that is going to carry over into this game if they do gearscore type shit. Just upgrade the stats, who cares what ilvl it is. Leave some mystery.
Click to expand...
Gearscore is fine, it's just another way to define your "level" once you stop earning experience. It's almost in every game already in different forms. AA points, Planar Attunement levels or whatever.
 
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Draegan_sl

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eek_sl said:
Rift achievements also had some novelty cosmetic rewards. Titles and such, and if you completed all of the achievements for a raid, you'd get a fancy mount. Not really the greatest of incentives to be honest, just icing on the cake. All it did was give farm days a little more interest.

As everyone stated, tiered rewards are meh. The tiers are either unmeaningful, or too meaningful. People's opinions of them will end up being binary.

Having both 40 and 20 man raids is just incredibly problematic. Almost by definition, a 40man raid should reward better gear, since they require far more effort to organize and execute. Yet, the primary difficulty differences between 20 and 40, are not in-game differences, but entirely logistical. This then leads to either side clamoring about who should get better or equal loot. 40 man raiders will argue that they have to put more work into a raid. 20 man raiders will argue the raids should reward based on in-game ability. If 20 man raids end up rewarding the same quality of gear as 40 man raids, then 40 man raids will almost entirely disappear. Who wants to herd 20 more cats, and deal with double the amount of carrying, for equal rewards? This doesn't even go into the issue of having your design team create 2 sets of raids to keep both groups happy.
Click to expand...
The devs have already talked about this. They know getting 40 people together is harder, so they are saying that. They've already said that 40 man gear will be much better than 20 man gear. They want to get people to stand on top of a mail box showing off gear in the home city again. They don't want to do what WOW has done, where all gear looks exactly the same except for color.

Anyway I think you might not know that the 20 man raids are completely different dungeons than 40 man raids.
 
Kreugen

Kreugen

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I hate dividing up raid sizes, period. It causes nothing but problems - one uber group gets formed to knock out the raid at 3am on a weeknight, then the rest have to throw together some dogshit team made up of alts and pugs. By trying to appease everyone you just wind up pissing everyone off.

One raid size. Big raid zones with progressive difficulty that expect you to gear up along the way. Uber guilds beat the end boss with shit gear, the rest eventually catch up as they gear up off of easier bosses. Achievements for bonus shit like mounts etc that say "I am uber." WoW never needed hard modes with full sets of +gooder gear.
 
Grim1

Grim1

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eek_sl said:
Having both 40 and 20 man raids is just incredibly problematic. Almost by definition, a 40man raid should reward better gear, since they require far more effort to organize and execute. Yet, the primary difficulty differences between 20 and 40, are not in-game differences, but entirely logistical. This then leads to either side clamoring about who should get better or equal loot. 40 man raiders will argue that they have to put more work into a raid. 20 man raiders will argue the raids should reward based on in-game ability. If 20 man raids end up rewarding the same quality of gear as 40 man raids, then 40 man raids will almost entirely disappear. Who wants to herd 20 more cats, and deal with double the amount of carrying, for equal rewards? This doesn't even go into the issue of having your design team create 2 sets of raids to keep both groups happy.
Click to expand...
One of the advantages of raiding at a high level in EQ was being able to do the endgame content with smaller numbers.. more loot for everyone. And if we wanted to carry somebody's girlfriend or the the guy who made us laugh, it didn't bother anyone. Of course EQ raids weren't as scripted back then, but the concept still applies. Just because the raid allows 40 doesn't mean you should have to bring that many.
 
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eek_sl

shitlord
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Draegan_sl said:
The devs have already talked about this. They know getting 40 people together is harder, so they are saying that. They've already said that 40 man gear will be much better than 20 man gear. They want to get people to stand on top of a mail box showing off gear in the home city again. They don't want to do what WOW has done, where all gear looks exactly the same except for color.

Anyway I think you might not know that the 20 man raids are completely different dungeons than 40 man raids.
Click to expand...
Right, I know what they've said, the point was all that does is lead to whining and quibbling. There's something to be said about achieving and giving people aspirations, but having 2 raid sizes is a decision independent of those things. All it does is create tension and butt hurt. You can argue that people will be butthurt regardless, that the nature of humanity is a sore anus, I really can't argue against that. Doesn't change the fact that 2 raid sizes is dumb.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

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3 raid sizes technically if you count world bosses. Looking forward to it. If I don't like a particular raid size I wont do it.
 
Dandai

Dandai

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I'm torn on the issue of 2 raid sizes. I don't like the way WoW does 10 and 25 man version of each raid zone, but I did like that Karazhan felt like a training wheels raid. Obviously they got intel that shows that it wasn't universally liked (as they no longer do Kara raids), so I guess I'm in the minority.
 
mkopec

mkopec

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Ill be happy if the entire "raiding form 7-11" bullshit dies this next gen of mmorpgs. I would be happy with a group centric game again, focusing on the core group of 5-10 people rather than some bullshit raids that everyone needs to plan their entire RL around. But its obviously not going to be this game.....
 
Delly

Delly

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mkopec_sl said:
Ill be happy if the entire "raiding form 7-11" bullshit dies this next gen of mmorpgs. I would be happy with a group centric game again, focusing on the core group of 5-10 people rather than some bullshit raids that everyone needs to plan their entire RL around. But its obviously not going to be this game.....
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This.

I can't see raids being a major part of the future of MMO gaming. Make 20 awesome 5-10 man instances, not 5 awesome 5 man instances and 1-2 40 man raid zones.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Dandai_sl said:
I'm torn on the issue of 2 raid sizes. I don't like the way WoW does 10 and 25 man version of each raid zone, but I did like that Karazhan felt like a training wheels raid. Obviously they got intel that shows that it wasn't universally liked (as they no longer do Kara raids), so I guess I'm in the minority.
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At least Wildstar won't have multiple versions of the same raid. Thank god. I for one won't be raiding in Wildstar most likely because I have a new born and that shit doesn't work with a raiding schedule.

Unless you can raid in just one or two nights.
 
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