Ancient Civilizations

mkopec

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I forgot the section of geology where stones disappear after 10000 years.
And thats the thing, they cant date stones, only organics. So by them being found with other Egyptian stuff in tombs and other places, archeologists just basically tagged them as being made by Egyptians. Which by all accounts makes sense until you study this more, like its being done now, and its pretty apparent that one of those things is not like the other.
 
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Furry

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And thats the thing, they cant date stones, only organics. So by them being found with other Egyptian stuff in tombs and other places, archeologists just basically tagged them as being made by Egyptians. Which by all accounts makes sense until you study this more, like it’s being done now, and it’s pretty apparent that one of those things is not like the other.
Aberrational craftsmanship that is centuries or millennia before its time is nothing new in archaeology. See the antikythera or the Roman emperor’s glass cups. I’m not convinced by arguments that things are made too well for our understanding of a time period. One mad genius that never reveals his techniques can throw a huge wrench into history at times, and we have very well documented examples of it where we don’t understand the how very well or at all, but the providence and timing is completely beyond question.
 

mkopec

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I dont buy that providence and timing is beyond question. Since, again you cannot date rocks, its a guess at best, by association. There are even theories that say that the pyramids were not built by the 5000 yr old Egyptians, only moved into. And the further back in time you go the more sketch these things really are.
 
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Ukerric

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Thats the main thing that sets off my bullshit sensor

Not just the pots but everything else that is touted as "it couldnt be built/made with technology of that time" whether it comes to blocks, obelisks, household objects, funerary items, etc.

We can find all these examples of what was impossible to make at the time, but we can't find a single example of how. Not a single tool, not a single clay tablet with instructions, nothing.

What are the odds? :emoji_thinking:
Lost technologies happen all the time. Consider the best known, concrete. Roman concrete was a marvel. They used it primarily for extensive structure, which survived due to that use of concrete... and the art of making concrete was lost for over 15 centuries until it was reinvented in the 19th. It's a reminder that technological state is not monolithic. All civilizations were advanced in one aspect, less in others.

Regarding clay tablets, I was watching last week the old conference by Irving Finkel on Noah's ark, and how a poetic clay tablet contained accurate instructions, including correct amount of materials to build the original Noah's Ark, enough that they made a movie about it, with building an actual scaled down replica (it helps he's hilarious):

 
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Guurn

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Lost technologies happen all the time. Consider the best known, concrete. Roman concrete was a marvel. They used it primarily for extensive structure, which survived due to that use of concrete... and the art of making concrete was lost for over 15 centuries until it was reinvented in the 19th. It's a reminder that technological state is not monolithic. All civilizations were advanced in one aspect, less in others.

Regarding clay tablets, I was watching last week the old conference by Irving Finkel on Noah's ark, and how a poetic clay tablet contained accurate instructions, including correct amount of materials to build the original Noah's Ark, enough that they made a movie about it, with building an actual scaled down replica (it helps he's hilarious):


There's an amazing amount of science in concrete. It's no wonder it's easily lost.
 
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Daidraco

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The thing you have to understand is that everything in our lives, tech and machine and knowlege wise is all compartmentalized. So lets say that tthere was a mass extinction event, say the Yellowstone volcano went off. OR asteroid hits us...etc...And 50%+ of he worlds people died off, which is not hard to fathom, right?

So how do you figure were only going to be set back to 1900s tech? Were going back to pure survival mode. Food and water, and shelter bro. Youre going to be spear chucking right off the bat to get food. Some little communities will form with some smart types that know a thing or two with hand tools and maybe some science shit like charging a battery or two using a windmill or some shit, but with the infrastructure gone, there isnt any machines running, no computers, none of that good shit. Plumbers? What good is a fucking plumber in the end times? Engineer? Maybe to build a better shack? So now fast forward a generation or two, and all the old world wisdom is now dead, ammo is all depleted, guns are rotting away. Only knowledge that survives is whats told from father to son. Smart dies in the first generation. Even the batteries will eventually die. There is no more schools, no more math, no more physics, no more machines, all that shit will just rust away. Fast forward a few more, and now you see how dumber we all get before we ever get smarter again. They will be telling tales of the "Atlantis" that once existed where a advanced civilization lived like gods around the camp fire.
I agree with what you're saying in principal. But in my mind, its coming off more as pessimistic view of the world. Even if we had a super volcano event, or as mentioned, a massive solar flare that stripped away a layer or more of atmosphere OR any of those possible events still leave the world in a survivable state - then we would still have pockets of civilization within the world that would survive and prosper. We're just disagreeing on the severity that we would regress, and thats fine.

I feel like civilization was at least advanced up to a point within the last 22k years, but its down fall wasnt a major catastrophe - but the fact that it was located in the shithole part of the world. Somewhere between North Africa, the Middle East, or Southern Europe. Looking at how the US has brought stability and wealth to the rest of the world, in terms of culture, the blink of an eye - we can guess that the same happened there. Then, as those heathen cultures grew in wealth and power, they bit the hand that fed them and wiped them out. Where the ruling class of the heathens deemed it so that no one not in royalty should have certain advancements in technology and that certain other technologies that they couldnt grasp were viewed as devilry. Which, even to this day with the west pumping this region of the world with technology and culture, force feeding them the shit through media and war, - they still cling to their religious zealotry. They erase their history and destroy their own technology in an effort to kill people out of their fervor, as retarded as that sounds.
I dont buy that providence and timing is beyond question. Since, again you cannot date rocks, its a guess at best, by association. There are even theories that say that the pyramids were not built by the 5000 yr old Egyptians, only moved into. And the further back in time you go the more sketch these things really are.
Since learning this, Ive seen it first hand that the majority of the worlds population (here, reddit, facebook, etc.) believe that Scientists/Archaeologists can carbon date anything and everything. Further amazed at the people that understand the processes and still think that just because they found a piece of carved wood near a stone ruin, that they think the wood dates the ruin.
 
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TJT

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I agree with what you're saying in principal. But in my mind, its coming off more as pessimistic view of the world. Even if we had a super volcano event, or as mentioned, a massive solar flare that stripped away a layer or more of atmosphere OR any of those possible events still leave the world in a survivable state - then we would still have pockets of civilization within the world that would survive and prosper. We're just disagreeing on the severity that we would regress, and thats fine.

I feel like civilization was at least advanced up to a point within the last 22k years, but its down fall wasnt a major catastrophe - but the fact that it was located in the shithole part of the world. Somewhere between North Africa, the Middle East, or Southern Europe. Looking at how the US has brought stability and wealth to the rest of the world, in terms of culture, the blink of an eye - we can guess that the same happened there. Then, as those heathen cultures grew in wealth and power, they bit the hand that fed them and wiped them out. Where the ruling class of the heathens deemed it so that no one not in royalty should have certain advancements in technology and that certain other technologies that they couldnt grasp were viewed as devilry. Which, even to this day with the west pumping this region of the world with technology and culture, force feeding them the shit through media and war, - they still cling to their religious zealotry. They erase their history and destroy their own technology in an effort to kill people out of their fervor, as retarded as that sounds.

Since learning this, Ive seen it first hand that the majority of the worlds population (here, reddit, facebook, etc.) believe that Scientists/Archaeologists can carbon date anything and everything. Further amazed at the people that understand the processes and still think that just because they found a piece of carved wood near a stone ruin, that they think the wood dates the ruin.
You need to think about it on a macro scale. What you're talking about would take centuries to recover from. Let's use your example and a solar flare fries everything more advanced than a transistor radio. But doesn't physically harm any person or structure directly. Boom every modern factory, pc component fabrication, data stores, any car older than 2000 or whatever. The ability to build 19th century factories would have to be rediscovered as we would have to regress all of the supporting technologies, forging, manufacturing techniques, labor force, etc back to that level. Livestock/horses to do labor wouldn't be in abundance and would take another generation to get used to using them again. Without the ability to produce nitrates from the air like we have since the early 20th century critical fertilizers would be in short supply. I mean it would be so ugly I don't even want to think about it.

Yes the world would be survivable, in a way, but that transition period would leave millions upon millions dead.
 
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Chris

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Holy shit:


Apparently the Quran disproves Islam lmao.

Hope this is ancient enough.
 
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TJT

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I dont buy that providence and timing is beyond question. Since, again you cannot date rocks, its a guess at best, by association. There are even theories that say that the pyramids were not built by the 5000 yr old Egyptians, only moved into. And the further back in time you go the more sketch these things really are.
I agree. The vases are completely unprovenanced from a known site. All they can agree upon is that it was in the private collection of a British aristocrat since the early 19th century. Which creates its own problems even if it was a complete forgery as 18th century stonemasons also wouldn't have been able to create it.
 
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Chukzombi

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I think unchartedx says in the video that they have lots more vases to test and scan, one particular vase that was suggested by critics of his work. I assume that means that vase has a well documented history and none of this silliness about intricate forgeries. I am glad that the testing methods are not in doubt here, so if people are doubting the claims, they aren't saying the guys in the lab are "in on it too".
 

TJT

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To dispel issues with provenance they would need to do the same battery of tests against specimens owned by the Museum of Cairo or British Museum of Natural History. Anyplace that has "authority."

Since they are rogue elements that exist outside of academia the absolute most they can do is petition these places to do it. So, might be waiting a while I guess.
 

TJT

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I liked that video linked here about copper saws. Some dude did a test of copper saw on granite and when related to the size of existing things like in the Serappeum. It would have taken like 3 years of sawing 8 hours a day just to separate the piece that would become the lid from the whole. It also would have taken hundreds if not thousands of copper saws as they wore out.
 
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Chukzombi

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I liked that video linked here about copper saws. Some dude did a test of copper saw on granite and when related to the size of existing things like in the Serappeum. It would have taken like 3 years of sawing 8 hours a day just to separate the piece that would become the lid from the whole. It also would have taken hundreds if not thousands of copper saws as they wore out.
The shit about the diorite pounding stones being what carved the perfectly shaped stones all through ancient Egypt, is way funnier. Every video they tried to make something with just a small piece of granite, they all gave up after a day, but still declared it the tool that did the job.
 

mkopec

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I liked that video linked here about copper saws. Some dude did a test of copper saw on granite and when related to the size of existing things like in the Serappeum. It would have taken like 3 years of sawing 8 hours a day just to separate the piece that would become the lid from the whole. It also would have taken hundreds if not thousands of copper saws as they wore out.
And then imagine the pyramids themselves. Forget the cutting of the stones.... 3.2 MILLION stones, 2.5 tons average weight of one stone plus some 8000 tons of granite were imported from Aswan located at more than 800 km away.

And they would have to be set perfectly because the errors only compound the error as you go higher.

And they want us to believe that these things were originally built by 4,000 workers over the course of 20 years using strength, sleds and ropes. So thats moving some 445 of those 3.2 million stones per day, thats an average of 30 some stones per hour if they worked 16 hrs per day non stop. Thats like taking a sled putting it under an Escalade, thats one challenge. And then using ropes to pull that escalade up a hill then setting it in a precise way next to another escalade 445 times a day for 20 yrs.

And then there is the idea that they built these dirt/sand, whatever, ramps as the pyramid got higher, right? So there is another challenge. So you make dirt ramps going up hundreds of feet at the right angle so the workers can drag the fucking Escalades up the ramp with sleighs and ropes. Now experiments were made showed 18 men could drag the block over a 1-in-4 incline ramp, at a rate of 18 metres per minute (1 ft/s). sO they would have to have 1,600 foot long ramps at 1/4 slope to get to 400 feet. Thats like 1/3 of a mile.

Oh and then they say these giant granite blocks, some of which weighed 90 tones were ferried down the nile. And all they have found was fucking canoes from that era. Imagine the size of the boat or raft needed to ferry a 90 tone block.

Just none of this shit makes sense.
 
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pharmakos

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Honestly, losing a bunch of knowledge as a civilization isn't even that hard to accomplish.

Lets imagine a point 200 years in the future. Everything is on the internet. There's no reason to have books, manuscripts, etc. You can already see this now. Where are your books? For us, we might own some. But for a lot of people, it's fucking Kindles. It's E-books. Its convenient, doesn't take up space, and you can take an entire library worth of books stuffed into the front pocket of your backpack.

Now, imagine that exact same thing existed 10,000 years ago. Electricity, internet, the whole works. And then - something happened. I dunno, solar storm, major flooding, whatever. A fucking cataclysm that ended things. Look around - look at how dumb the average person is. Is it really that difficult to believe that we would revert to straight stone age very quickly? What would you be doing? Could you forge a knife? Could you build anything more than simply lashed stone tools? What if you didn't even have any reference books to look at? What if you couldn't look up recipes, or how-to guides? It's not even that much of a stretch to believe that once the very few people who actually knew how to do shit died, that there wouldn't be any useful knowledge left at all. It would be entirely thots and fuckbois trying to rub sticks together to make fire and wiping their asses with their hands.

I can absolutely imagine a situation where a super advanced civilization gets the rug yanked out from under them and because they are so lazy and so complacent they lose everything, and all that's left 10,000+ years later is their masterwork vases, buried in a tomb, the prized posession of the end of a bloodline of the kings that rose out of the ashes of the previous world. We're literally teetering on the same precipice. And in 10,000 years, some motherfucker is gonna find a World of Warcraft Burning Crusade CD ROM and wonder how we could have possibly had this technology.
Now imagine... There's an ice age, and things get so bad that the old ass books that DID survive end up being more valuable as kindling than as knowledge.

Then savage barbarians destroy the few surviving libraries with the *really* valuable knowledge after society pulls itself back together post ice age.
 

pharmakos

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Thats the main thing that sets off my bullshit sensor

Not just the pots but everything else that is touted as "it couldnt be built/made with technology of that time" whether it comes to blocks, obelisks, household objects, funerary items, etc.

We can find all these examples of what was impossible to make at the time, but we can't find a single example of how. Not a single tool, not a single clay tablet with instructions, nothing.

What are the odds? :emoji_thinking:
ancient-aliens-guy-"because-aliens".jpg
 

pharmakos

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The thing you have to understand is that everything in our lives, tech and machine and knowlege wise is all compartmentalized. So lets say that tthere was a mass extinction event, say the Yellowstone volcano went off. OR asteroid hits us...etc...And 50%+ of he worlds people died off, which is not hard to fathom, right?

So how do you figure were only going to be set back to 1900s tech? Were going back to pure survival mode. Food and water, and shelter bro. Youre going to be spear chucking right off the bat to get food. Some little communities will form with some smart types that know a thing or two with hand tools and maybe some science shit like charging a battery or two using a windmill or some shit, but with the infrastructure gone, there isnt any machines running, no computers, none of that good shit. Plumbers? What good is a fucking plumber in the end times? Engineer? Maybe to build a better shack? So now fast forward a generation or two, and all the old world wisdom is now dead, ammo is all depleted, guns are rotting away. Only knowledge that survives is whats told from father to son. Smart dies in the first generation. Even the batteries will eventually die. There is no more schools, no more math, no more physics, no more machines, all that shit will just rust away. Fast forward a few more, and now you see how dumber we all get before we ever get smarter again. They will be telling tales of the "Atlantis" that once existed where a advanced civilization lived like gods around the camp fire.
On top of this, the communities MOST ready to survive end times type scenarios are Amish and other low tech societies that are already able to raise a barn by hand from fresh cut trees or whatever. People that have no grasp of the advanced technology that's made the average modern human complacent and incapable.
 

mkopec

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On top of this, the communities MOST ready to survive end times type scenarios are Amish and other low tech societies that are already able to raise a barn by hand from fresh cut trees or whatever. People that have no grasp of the advanced technology that's made the average modern human complacent and incapable.
Like I said, all of hour knowledge is too compartmentalized these days. We have experts in very narrow windows of knowledge. Very few general experts. Too much relying on power tools and tech to solve propblems. And yeah, 80% of the plebs are just plain dumb.
 
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