Bioshock Infinite

Caliane · Dec 18, 2013

Nothing wrong with interactive stories. video games are a perfect media for choose your own adventures. Its just so many just don't handle it very well.
Theres a long history of them as well. From adventure games like Monkey Island, to Longest Journey, to narrative heavy rpgs like Planescape. to games like Stanley parable, or even portal. (which admittedly does do a good job on its puzzle element, but lets be honest, is largely successful on its narrative)

you are not wrong in that Bioshock totally stumbles on what it wants to be. The combat is totally at odds with the narrative more often then not.
I personally feel it would be FAR more enjoyable if it almost removed the combat entirely. Make it outright a metroidvania. or possibly a tombraider. Exploring and navigating the cities being the primary gameplay element, which leads to narrative exposition. combat being sparse.

Seananigans · Dec 18, 2013

The first half of your post goes without saying, of course I know that there's nothing wrong with interactive stories. I love most Telltale games. Although I'd disagree heartily that Planescape or Portal belong in this category.

I only used that term because it's the closest thing to what Bioshock Infinite is, after they fucked the gameplay so hard with a 2013-modern-AAA dildo. It doesn't even dothatwell, and going that route makes it not even a Bioshock game. System Shock 2 and Bioshock both had great gameplay IMO, and stripping it away just leaves you with a pile of "meh." It's unfortunate that I got suckered into buying this travesty, because I think "stumbling on what it wants to be" is putting it quite lightly. This shit needs to be punished for existing, not rewarded with our money time and time again. It doesn't help that any reputable (not even sure I can use that word) review source is in some dev or another's pocket, thus disabling any chance of appropriate reviews.

spronk · Dec 18, 2013

Seananigans_sl said:
I guess the comments weren't properly worded then, because I came away with the impression that it was still a good/solid game. There's no excuse for these modern day interactive stories or whatever you want to call this shit the industry is churning out these days. I want to play games, not be hand-held through some jackass's idea of a "compelling" story. If I wanted that, I'd watch a fucking movie. Story in games is there to enhance the game experience, andwasoften done quite well back in the day, but when there's no GAME to be had, then what's the fucking point?

its been a long time since I played Rapture, but wasn't BS1 also mostly encounter based? I don't really remember a lot of real choices in that game either, I don't consider "do A B and C in any order you want!" a choice, both BS1 and Infinite had that. I remember having to backtrack a LOT in bs1, and god hacking turrets was the worst thing. There were definitely a lot of flaws in Infinite, especially around combat and enemy variety, but I guess after playing stuff like Max Payne 3 or Mass Effect 3 or pretty much every MMO, Infinite felt decent enough. of course paying only $15 or something for the entire trilogy didnt hurt.

Not all reviews were super positive, this is one I agree with
BioShock Infinite Review - VideoGamer.com

The Ancient_sl · Dec 18, 2013

Seananigans_sl said:
The first half of your post goes without saying, of course I know that there's nothing wrong with interactive stories. I love most Telltale games. Although I'd disagree heartily that Planescape or Portal belong in this category.

I only used that term because it's the closest thing to what Bioshock Infinite is, after they fucked the gameplay so hard with a 2013-modern-AAA dildo. It doesn't even dothatwell, and going that route makes it not even a Bioshock game. System Shock 2 and Bioshock both had great gameplay IMO, and stripping it away just leaves you with a pile of "meh." It's unfortunate that I got suckered into buying this travesty, because I think "stumbling on what it wants to be" is putting it quite lightly. This shit needs to be punished for existing, not rewarded with our money time and time again. It doesn't help that any reputable (not even sure I can use that word) review source is in some dev or another's pocket, thus disabling any chance of appropriate reviews.

The gameplay isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

Seananigans · Dec 18, 2013

Yeah, that's kind of my point. If the denizens of this forum think this game is worthy ofanycritical acclaim, then I'm probably just fucked for the foreseeable future. I mean, I don't care what this game did well, if anything. When it's got glaring issues so large as completely lacking FPS gameplay IN A FUCKING FPS GAME, then it should be written off. And these are not just simple mistakes or "oops" situations, either. They're carefully calculated decisions based on the modern revenue-stream design. Big studios don't designgamesanymore, and they shouldn't be rewarded for it, goddammit.

Ninen · Dec 18, 2013

Ok, so you understand the process behind the formulation of an AAA game. And you knew it was going to be an AAA game from all the marketing.

Next time, when you hate AAA games, don't buy the AAA game.

And you're probably right about future AAA FPSs, at least for your particular wants and needs. Good thing that indies are staying strong out there. You may have to put up indi-shit like too-much-brown, or terribad graphics, or a sound system clearly generated by a guy in a garage on a kazoo; but you'll get a game with heart, and quite likely many/most of the game play qualities you want.

spronk · Dec 18, 2013

Seananigans_sl said:
Yeah, that's kind of my point. If the denizens of this forum think this game is worthy ofanycritical acclaim, then I'm probably just fucked for the foreseeable future

i would respond but i'm too busy playing BlartiPlartFast on my retro atari 2601 I built out of vinyl records and sony walkmen, you've probably never heard of it its very underground and only available on the deep web tor network with bitcoins

Caliane · Dec 18, 2013

Ninen_sl said:
Ok, so you understand the process behind the formulation of an AAA game. And you knew it was going to be an AAA game from all the marketing.

Next time, when you hate AAA games, don't buy the AAA game.

And you're probably right about future AAA FPSs, at least for your particular wants and needs. Good thing that indies are staying strong out there. You may have to put up indi-shit like too-much-brown, or terribad graphics, or a sound system clearly generated by a guy in a garage on a kazoo; but you'll get a game with heart, and quite likely many/most of the game play qualities you want.

Are there any good indie FPS's? or even a bad one? Not even a joke. I am really thinking about this.
Platformers, retro games, rpgs, adventure games, arpgs, I cant think of one fps. With all the bitching about modern fps design, SOMEONE has to have made one. I'm drawing a blank.

Vorph · Dec 18, 2013

Ninen_sl said:
Ok, so you understand the process behind the formulation of an AAA game. And you knew it was going to be an AAA game from all the marketing.

I don't see anything wrong with expecting [a lot] more from a AAA game made by Irrational.

And by marketing do you mean the "gameplay" videos from 2010 and 2011 that barely even resemble the gameplay in the final release?

Seananigans · Dec 18, 2013

Ninen-

As mentioned in my first post, sir I-don't-really-care-to-read-apparently, I had high hopes due to Ken Levine's direction, as well as most of this thread (although I guess that could have been incorrect memories). But alas, my hopes were misplaced, as they are now with many other previously fantastic devs/studios (see Blizzard).

I will say, I don't understand people who are overly defensive of... anything really, when the industry is in such a terrible place overall.Everythingdeserves the utmost criticism right now more than ever.

Hatorade · Dec 18, 2013

Caliane_sl said:
Are there any good indie FPS's? or even a bad one? Not even a joke. I am really thinking about this.
Platformers, retro games, rpgs, adventure games, arpgs, I cant think of one fps. With all the bitching about modern fps design, SOMEONE has to have made one. I'm drawing a blank.

Maybe because I consider myself a true gamer(or just an idiot that plays everything) that I know these off the top of my head.
Great to decent ones:
Eye cybermancy something(techincally a mod but changed enough to be original)
Natural Selection 2
Ace of Spades
The King of wood(browser game but fantastic)
Hard Reset

I could name a bunch of shitty ones like Red Cucible etc but this place can point you in the right directionFree Indie Games | Game Jolt

Or you can just google indie FPS and get a bunch of results.

Jait · Dec 18, 2013

Seananigans_sl said:
I will say, I don't understand people who are overly defensive of... anything really, when the industry is in such a terrible place overall.Everythingdeserves the utmost criticism right now more than ever.

That's called being a cynic. Or as spronk accurately alluded to, you're acting like a hipster doofus douchebag.

Vorph · Dec 18, 2013

"A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist."

Seananigans · Dec 18, 2013

What Vorph said, and I'm about as far from hipster faggot as you can get.

Commander Vimeseh_sl · Dec 18, 2013

You also have rose colored glasses at least in regards to Bioshock. It was a really average FPS as far as the actual combat and mechanics of the game went as well. The character of Rapture and the story once again carried it to great game status.

Not that I disagree with you about the current state of the big time game industry, but the FPS parts of the Shock games have never really been that strong, nor have you ever had that many choices that completely alter the game.

Tuco · Dec 18, 2013

I saw very little difference in the gameplay of Bioshock1 and infinite. The biggest differences were probably in the enemy types.

Seananigans · Dec 18, 2013

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. As what I'm saying is partly just mine. I replayed Bioshock a year or so ago, and I enjoyed it just as much as the first time. I also enjoyed the FPS gameplay much, much more than I'm enjoying Infinite's FPS gameplay. I know for certain that the reason is because of the slanting toward "popular" AAA FPS practices.

And I'm definitely not asking for earth-shattering story choices to alter the game. I'm looking formeaningfulchoices, of any sort. I realize it's a bit of a hard design paradigm to discuss, so I apologize for my possible inability to articulate it properly. One main choice I'm sorely missing is being able to use the right weapon for the right circumstance, or even just use a weapon because it's fun to use. Because fuck the 2-weapon limit bullshit in its ass. But no, instead they've changed that out for the non-choice of DURRR which two weapons should I carry around right now? Well, always the same ones I've been carrying, obviously. I've passed up several new weapons after just firing them to see how they are, because I don't want to be locked into that choice and/or lose access to whatever weapon I had to put down. And no, saying "but you can sift back through the level to find what you dropped at a later time" is not a valid response to that issue, because that is a terrible reason for someone to be retreading empty hallways.

I don't expect many/any of you to agree with me, that's fine. I'm just discussing, because I enjoy discussing game design.

The Ancient_sl · Dec 18, 2013

Tuco_sl said:
I saw very little difference in the gameplay of Bioshock1 and infinite. The biggest differences were probably in the enemy types.

The shield alone makes a big difference in gameplay. Not too mention Infinite was more likely to toss hordes of enemies at you at once. Bioshock was more 1 at a time battles in succesion with less chance to scavenge back up from trash cans in between.

Oh, 2 gun mechanic. Duh.

Commander Vimeseh_sl · Dec 18, 2013

Two gun choice. I can agree with that. But the rest I'm just not seeing. The actual shooter portion of Bioshock 1 is much weaker then it is in Infinite and the set piece style of combat is pretty much the same too. I'm not sure what you felt was different. Maybe you just liked Rapture more then Columbia or something.

Also, when you say choice to me and I'd assume most people automatically think about in game choices that you can make which can or should alter the story/events. It isn't stuff like two gun mechanics which I guess you were referring too. No Shock title has had the former is what I was getting at in my previous post, except in minor ways.

Tuco · Dec 18, 2013

The Ancient_sl said:
The shield alone makes a big difference in gameplay. Not too mention Infinite was more likely to toss hordes of enemies at you at once. Bioshock was more 1 at a time battles in succesion with less chance to scavenge back up from trash cans in between.

Oh, 2 gun mechanic. Duh.

Those are good points.

Really all I remember from either game is the amount of mouse lag present. Thx unreal3 for not having hardware mouse support!

Bioshock Infinite

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FPS noob

shitlord

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Ahn'Qiraj Raider

FPS noob

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Bronze Baronet of the Realm

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A nice asshole.

Molten Core Raider

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I got Tuco'd!

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I got Tuco'd!