Bioshock Infinite

Vaclav

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Its brief but I'd agree. Its pretty much perfect for the type of game it is. I'm sure an open world version would've been insane, but its not something it was ever meant to be.
 

Dandai

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what;s the new update for bioshock. it's huge.
Hello all,

We've just released PC Patch 11 for BioShock Infinite. Details below:

CHANGES INCLUDED IN PATCH 11

- Added support for upcoming addition of Traditional Chinese language

Please note that the reason this patch is so large is that it impacts the main game, plus each DLC Pack.
 

Amzin

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The first Bioshock wasn't a first-person shooter, it was a first-person survivor game. As someone who LOVES playing single-player FPS (I have no idea why), I could not stand Bioshock 1's gameplay. I enjoyed the world and story enough to cheat my way through it essentially.

Bioshock Infinite, on the other hand, is way way less survivory and way more shoostery. The gameplay still wasn't top-notch but it was entertaining and the whole rail-combat was a novel experience (at least I haven't come across something like it in other shooters). Again, the world and story are what got me to the end as some of the fighting later in the game was uninspired, to put it lightly. As a Ken Levine game, I don't see anything separating it from Bioshock 1. It's more fun for shooter fans and less fun for survival fans than Bioshock 1. The setting and story of Infinite are on par with 1 but they are different. Different strokes for different folks. Lambasting Infinite as some shat-out CoD-inspired blahfest is entirely unobjective and just makes your opinion of Bioshock 1 that much more confusing.
 

Vorph

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Bioshock also had the 'Metroidvania' elements, which is just code for 'a whole lot of backtracking, as well as beating your head against obstacles that turn out to be impassable until you unlock some gadget/ability/key much later.' I find that shit infuriating after I realize that the thing I've been try to get past is simply impossible at the moment, but at least in Bioshock it was generally pretty obvious that you couldn't progress past most of them (e.g. giant walls of ice). There were also the survivor elements as you say, but mainly that was due to the fact that big daddies are retarded damage sponges on any difficulty above normal.

Overall, I agree with a lot of what Seananigans said, but I still think Infinite was the much better game. They both had shitty combat design for different reasons as well as awful mouse control--I ended up just saying fuck it and played Infinite with a gamepad--and both games were really only interesting for their atmosphere and world design. Infinite wins though, because of it having arguably the best voice acting ever in a videogame, and a generally better story. It was a bit of a mess because Levine rewrote it in the last six months to fit a brand new ending but it was still vastly better than being beaten over the head with Ayn Rand bullshit for 12 hours. Plus Bioshock's final hour and ending flat out sucked.
 

OU Ariakas

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Bioshock 1 gameplay/story/lore >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bioschok Infinite gameplay/story/lore. I was so excited about Infinite that when I realized I didn't like it I took some time off and played it again to make sure I wasn't just setting my expectations way too high. I was not, and it is garbage.

Edit:
Plus Bioshock's final hour and ending flat out sucked.
"Would you kindly" reveal may be my favorite part of any video game/movie in the last ten years. Now we can't ever be bros.
 

Vaclav

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Ariakas: He's talking about everything post Ryan planting the club in his skull. Not the WYK reveal.
 

Amzin

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Bioshock 1 gameplay/story/lore >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bioschok Infinite gameplay/story/lore. I was so excited about Infinite that when I realized I didn't like it I took some time off and played it again to make sure I wasn't just setting my expectations way too high. I was not, and it is garbage.

Edit:

"Would you kindly" reveal may be my favorite part of any video game/movie in the last ten years. Now we can't ever be bros.
That was hardly the final hour OR ending of Bioshock 1, Mr. Just-Replayed-It
 

Caliane

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That was hardly the final hour OR ending of Bioshock 1, Mr. Just-Replayed-It
I'm sure he cut the rest out of his mind like everyone else.

Either, the game ended with would you kindly. or, you stop playing and go read the how it should have ended article, and choose to believe that ending as what your headcannon. With enough denial, you can even implant memories of it actually having occurred.
 

OU Ariakas

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That was hardly the final hour OR ending of Bioshock 1, Mr. Just-Replayed-It
Haha, I actually just replayed Infinite, not 1, so I am rusty on how far away from the ending the WYK reveal took place. I stand by my statment about the lore/story of 1 being much much better than Infinite.
 

Jaybee

Silver Knight of the Realm
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I replayed Bioshock a year or so ago, and I enjoyed it just as much as the first time. I also enjoyed the FPS gameplay much, much more than I'm enjoying Infinite's FPS gameplay. I know for certain that the reason is because of the slanting toward "popular" AAA FPS practices.
I get where you are coming from. Despite possibly having the best atmosphere I've ever seen in a game, the gameplay of Infinite falls flat for me too. I tried to play through the game a second time and just couldn't make it through. The "walk/loot/sightsee --> scripted encounter --> walk/loot/sightsee -> scripted encounter" format just doesn't jibe with me either. I also thought the whole skyline-combat idea felt like watching an action scene from a movie that used too much shaky-cam. Insanely pretty game though...
 

Seananigans

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I get where you are coming from. Despite possibly having the best atmosphere I've ever seen in a game, the gameplay of Infinite falls flat for me too. I tried to play through the game a second time and just couldn't make it through. The "walk/loot/sightsee --> scripted encounter --> walk/loot/sightsee -> scripted encounter" format just doesn't jibe with me either. I also thought the whole skyline-combat idea felt like watching an action scene from a movie that used too much shaky-cam. Insanely pretty game though...
Yeah, pretty much all of this. Bioshock 1's gameplay (while not STELLAR) was solid enough, and felt ... correct? Infinite, on the other hand, feels artificial and soul-less in the way it's laid out in a formulaic way and such, as you mentioned. And yeah, the skyline stuff felt gimmicky and tacked on to me, I don't really see the need for it. At least the combat aspect. I thought the use of it for travel was decent enough, but when the first time I hopped on, I stopped at the next area to see a single enemy standing on the platform facing away from me so I can "SKYLINE STRIKE!!" him, it just felt so artificial and frankly retarded. Both of these things I attribute to the prevailing business-exec-instead-of-game-designer decision making process in the industry. There's a part of the game design process that involves critiquing the work to make sure a player will experience the right things, that seems to be skipped entirely in any project of sizable proportion nowadays.

I've said it a couple of times on this board, and because as I mentioned earlier, I love discussing game design, I'll mention it again. Penny Arcade has a weekly cartoon thing on their site called "Extra Credits" where a game designer basically discusses game design in an entertaining way (via cartoons/graphics). I agree with almost all of what he talks about throughout his now 3-4 year series. If any of you are interested in the ins and outs of game design, particularly how to make a compellinggameand not just a revenue-stream, and the exact reasons AAA is such a pile of shit, then check it out if you haven't already. It's quite fun stuff, for the most part. They occasionally get off onto weird tangents that I don't find interesting or appealing at all (they're quite PC and likely liberal), but overall, a good time waster.
 

Caliane

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nah.

well first, Bioshock 1. Definitely didn't feel correct. It's gameplay was not massively loved at all back then. And while people seem to have forgotten the flaws with time, they were there, and known.
Both BS1 and infinite suffer from grand ideas, with mediocre execution in terms of gameplay. although for different reasons.

In BS1 a number of things come to mind. Guns vs plasmids. you couldn't use them at the same time. you had to weapon swap to plasmids. You could argue intended, as a tactical choice and to slow things down. but really thats not quite how it worked out. It was mostly just annoying. BS2 fixed this, and so does Infinite of course.
Plasmids were gutted. Mostly me guessing here, but I am almost positive, plasmids as implemented, were only the bare essentials of what was intended. Several clues. Whirlwind traps. Decoy. etc a number of plasmids are more tactical. but in reality, mostly useless, as the game never really embraces tactical play. Additionally, higher ranks of plasmids, don't don anything extra. they just maintain effectiveness. There is NO way any sane dev would put that in a game on purpose. Having to invest in higher tiers of pyro, just to make it deal the same amount of damage it did at rank 1. No way. That HAD to have been a placeholder for plasmid growth, that never got implemented. Again, BS2 DID do that. t2 of pyro makes it a flamethrower. t3 makes it throw a bigger/exploding fireball. And so on.
The same issue is likely applied to weapons and ammo.
BS1 absolutely had way more weapons. And ammo did different things of course. Swapping for tactical play. Dropping mines. Placing tripwires. leading enemies into turrets you hacked. Some of the groundwork was laid for a very robust combat system. but unfortunately, the actual gameplay didn't really encourage doing any of that. Electric shotguns to the face did the job better/too well.
Run and gun was probably just too effective with healing, melee tonics, electric buck, and the rail shooter.

Infinite of course has 2 gun derp and this:
"walk/loot/sightsee --> scripted encounter --> walk/loot/sightsee -> scripted encounter"
The thing on the skylines however. nah. Again, this is like I say with bs1. This is clearly a gutted feature. For whatever was PLANNED, what we got was a horrid shell of what they intended. Definitely not a corporate choice. its a technical failure, or budget/time one. well, almost certainly.

There is the possibility the skyline encouraged too much open world play, and the desire for Levine to make this tight scripted story just couldn't allow the skylines freedom. which is kindof a problem with these games.
Rapture and Columbia, the worlds are practically the most interesting thing. Which is why I say, make them a 3d metroidvania. Those games are built around showcasing environments and having the backdrops BE the story. while Levine keeps taking those backdrops, which are often more interesting then his personal story... and tells us a personal story. Its a bit weird, as we as players all too often want to ignore the story, and go explore the world. and the other problem of course is the gameplay itself being at odds. as again, we want to explore they city on one hand, and on the other experience the narrative. NEITHER one of those mesh with generic fps of kill 10 baddies as they charge into a room.

For infinite, part of the game was showcasing the brutality. Making it clearly Booker is a monster IS important, granted.
 

Seananigans

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Well, maybe it's the issue I said with being hard to articulate, but you're not getting what I'm trying to say. None of what you mentioned about BS1 is the same type of thing I'm talking about. You're lumping anything and everything that's a minor facet of "FPS gameplay" and using it to rebutt my points about major things having more to do with the overall feel, motivations, feelings created by play, etc.

And I'm not feeling too smart right now, so I won't continue the discussion and instead will go to the gym. Brain am no work.
 

Caliane

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wasn't really rebutting any points other then corporate interference. I'm pretty sure both were simply budget/time constraints taking what were grand ideas, and gutting them in execution.
 

Seananigans

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I don't mean direct corporate interference, I mean the overall prevailing mentality of any big studio to treat these as revenue streams and not fucking GAMES. Which is a business executive type of mentality, and not a game designer mentality. These issues are a direct result of that shift in mentality of the industry as a whole. One manifestation (the one evident here) is to churn shit out in a formulaic manner, quite possibly using such methods as looking at monetarily successful games, and emulating them based on a hodge-podge frankenstein's monster of "features" from those games, rather than creating an inspired game experience based on proven methods for doing exactly that. How is this not completely evident?
 

spronk

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Why do you think Bioshock Infinite/3 was designed by business executives? If that was true, it would have been set in Rapture (surefire fanboi appeal, way way faster development time, reuse plasmids etc), would have had some sort of multiplayer built in (easy way to combat piracy and stall console reselling), do more shit with DLCs (I personally hate DLCs), and literally a dozen more things involving microtransactions, mobile tie-ins, etc. It really feels like a project Levine overreached on, some things worked and some things didn't. The story got extremely confusing and weird, and I'm sure a bunch of meddling execs kept pushing for it to get dumbed down and maybe the uncomfortable "black people/natives" stuff to get toned down.

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier, BS1 was a survival/FPS game which you clearly like, and BS3 was a story-driven game ala Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Assassins Creed, Tomb Raider, etc. Its story was all over the place, I personally enjoyed it but I could totally see how someone would not like it at all and understand why they would hate the game. The combat was not good and instead of driving the game, the story drove the combat. Its a bit strange though for someone to say THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE COULD EVER LIKE THIS STORY WHATS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS. Which is what you basically came into this thread shouting.

Is it the best game of 2013? nope, and I don't think it won any major awards. Is it the worst game released this year? nope. Is it better than bioshock 2? yup. Is it better than Bioshock 1? very debatable, but I never thought BS1 was that great so not a big issue for me.